file As predicted by somebody (lol) shit hit the fan again

06 Dec 2018 12:48 #92279 by jamesatzephyr

BenPeal wrote: - Should we merge the Sabbat clans back in with their Camarilla counterparts? If so, why should we split the Banu Haqim off from the Assamites?


An alternative thought.

It seems like the new WoD might(*) be going down the route of having the key fight for players in the world being Camarilla vs Anarchs, with the Sabbat being the evil doers off in the distance - possibly a greater emphasis on them being NPCs etc?

If that's the case, then if V:TES moves towards merging the antitribu clans into the main clans, it is (in general) likely to be much easier for them to freely mingle with each other. As things currently stand, there are game-based incentives to having the Sabbat clans separate from the Camarilla counterpart, such as having a greater likelihood of being able to play clan cards because you have the right clan out. e.g. a heavily mixed crypt may want to play the Sabbat version of the hunting ground when it's got three Camarilla vampires out and the only Sabbat vampire in their uncontrolled region is a 10 cap, just due to the randomness of shuffling.

If they're going down a route of Camarilla vs Anarchs vs (more likely to be GM-driven) Sabbat, would new White Wolf/Paradox prefer a situation where players are more likely to play Camarilla decks and Sabbat decks as more separate enterprises?



(*) Might, maybe, a possibility. I am not saying this is a certainty, just trying to read the tea leaves.

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06 Dec 2018 15:23 #92283 by ReverendRevolver
Precisely the sort of thing that Paradox will need to discuss with Onyx Path, whoever else will write WW stuff, and BC;

I'm cool in the dark, but Vtes has a larger Sabbat component than Anarch component, so it's fine if White Wolf/Paradox does either thing. But if Sabbat is going to become so widely detached from its previous state that its more like a tiny faction (what we know is they had another civil war, the crusade-favoring side won, and the rest who lived stayed behind in small numbers or went Anarch or Cam. )
This is the information we need to proceed. Given the one-clan-per-book method of release, like the slowest peep show on earth (if you overlook George RR Martin's writing pacing) , its roughly 2020 before we get enough of the big picture, since they seem focused on north America and Europe. Damn shame, since the Drowned Legacies easily look interesting, and the Sabbat, Beconing, and other metaplot crucial things are all in the middle east.
City Gangre were thrown up as much more sabbat in lined than thier counterparts, but I dont recall a mention in the 3 V5 books about them yet. Knight Ventrue where more Sabbat esque at the founding, but I don't recall thier mention either in V5. Everything else, including Lasombra and Tzimisce, are up in the air until we get a book.

What if the Sabbat Gehenna Crusaders found a way to mystically deviate thier blood to be immune to the Beckoning? Seems distracting in a war, no? But we have nothing yet.

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06 Dec 2018 23:21 - 07 Dec 2018 04:30 #92290 by Cat_in_Exile
I think the easiest thing would be to create a new VTES set that is separate from the old one, but 100% compatible, similar to how crypt cards are split into groups. This hypothetical set would be the equivant of a new group, which can't use the old group's cards, and vice versa.

To be clear, none of the current VTES cards would be compatible with the new ones (old and new protean cards not interchangable, for example) , but they all still use the same rules, so they can compete with each other in the same environment. It’s a reboot which doesn’t piss off players who are already invested in the game, allows the new set to develop along with the new meta, and gives tons of design space for BC to expand with new product. It also allows VTES to truly become an anthology game that represents the entirety of Vampire: The Masquerade’s history.
Last edit: 07 Dec 2018 04:30 by Cat_in_Exile.
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17 Dec 2018 18:38 - 17 Dec 2018 18:39 #92437 by jamesatzephyr

Cat_in_Exile wrote: I think the easiest thing would be to create a new VTES set that is separate from the old one, but 100% compatible, similar to how crypt cards are split into groups. This hypothetical set would be the equivant of a new group, which can't use the old group's cards, and vice versa.

To be clear, none of the current VTES cards would be compatible with the new ones (old and new protean cards not interchangable, for example) , but they all still use the same rules, so they can compete with each other in the same environment.


I quite like this idea in a lot of ways, but have been mulling it over for some time and started wondering about how you'd handle some nasty edge cases. For example:
  • Can Darius Styx use a new retainer that he gets that requires Oblivion? Can he use a new retainer at all? Similar questions about Erciyes Fragment? Fast Hands? More or less any card that can take someone else's cards?
  • Can a new vampire steal an old Powerbase: Montreal, and can your new vampires get blood from it? What about The Rack?
  • Can I elect a new Toreador to be Toreador Justicar with an old TJ card?
  • Is it intended that a new vampire who is a Sabbat Toreador gets an additional vote in the old TJ vote? (This can happen now technically, of course, but being a Sabbat Toreador is very rare with existing cards, but could be very common on new cards.) Would a new Toreador Justicar card say "...each Camarilla Toreador gets...", confusing everyone when the old one is played?
  • If I steal a vampire in any fashion across the old/new boundary - say, I play old Temptation or Graverobbing on your new vampire - what happens when I steal it? Can your new vampire play my old cards, where they match up?

There's also a more general question about re-printing all the bread and butter abilities that exist in disciplines and that exist in the new WoD with similar/identical names. Some simple things like +stealth, +intercept etc. are probably going to look very similar, if they're intended to be of a comparable power level to (good) existing cards. If we get a chunk of cards that re-use old V:TES names and are pretty similar (or identical), that might get confusing fast, especially if a new player gets hold of an old card with the same name as a new card and puts it in their deck in place of new card, not realising the difference. Or you have to avoid using names for new V:tM discipline powers that match old V:TES cards, which seems to undermine the ability to evoke new V:tM.
Last edit: 17 Dec 2018 18:39 by jamesatzephyr.

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19 Dec 2018 03:32 - 19 Dec 2018 06:45 #92495 by Cat_in_Exile
My thoughts for some of these such as taking control of cards from the old set that are in play is that, yeah, sure. I'd want both sets to play in the same environment, so anything in play is fair play. Same with decks from old sets taking control of new cards. Frankly, a lot of old cards would need to be ported over with the same names and any unique cards in either set would still contest each other, regardless of which group they came from.

Easy ways of differentiating the sets could include a distinct overhaul of card design, simply using the Set-Grouping indicator on certain cards (although that makes it more complicated, so not big on that idea), or, just like some crypt cards like Anarch Convert use can be used in any group, crossover staples could have an ANY group indicator.

I don't have answers to all of your questions, because it was more of a concept I was putting forth, but I'd want all cards interacting normally once they hit the board. Vampires from G4 can graverob G1 vampires, and I don't think it needs to be different here. The only real complication you mentioned that I don't have a solution for is whether/how they'd use disciplines after, which would need further thought.

As for Darius or any other minions with similar special text, having given it minimal thought, I don't see why not.
Last edit: 19 Dec 2018 06:45 by Cat_in_Exile.

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19 Dec 2018 08:23 - 19 Dec 2018 08:28 #92497 by Lech

jamesatzephyr wrote:

  • Can Darius Styx use a new retainer that he gets that requires Oblivion? Can he use a new retainer at all? Similar questions about Erciyes Fragment? Fast Hands? More or less any card that can take someone else's cards?
  • Can a new vampire steal an old Powerbase: Montreal, and can your new vampires get blood from it? What about The Rack?
  • Can I elect a new Toreador to be Toreador Justicar with an old TJ card?
  • Is it intended that a new vampire who is a Sabbat Toreador gets an additional vote in the old TJ vote? (This can happen now technically, of course, but being a Sabbat Toreador is very rare with existing cards, but could be very common on new cards.) Would a new Toreador Justicar card say "...each Camarilla Toreador gets...", confusing everyone when the old one is played?
  • If I steal a vampire in any fashion across the old/new boundary - say, I play old Temptation or Graverobbing on your new vampire - what happens when I steal it? Can your new vampire play my old cards, where they match up?

1. Yes, he can.
2. Yes, can steal and use, just can't have in deck.
3. Yes you can, if you somehow manage to get the TJ card during the game.
4. I think there should be errata to old TJ, as it make no sense that anarch/indep torries get additional votes anyway.
5. Yes, if he have OBLIVION he can play obt and nec cards.

Anyway, the easiest way to make those separate is to make graphical clues on discipline icons, layout and other stuff to make those distinct.

:laso: :CEL: :DOM: :OBT: :POT: :cap8:
Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.
Last edit: 19 Dec 2018 08:28 by Lech.
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