file Keywords and eliminating redundancy

20 Nov 2018 15:02 #91918 by LivesByProxy

It's strange to phrase it like "Vote (+1)" since all political actions would be at +1. Also, the extra vote granted by the political card is not granted to the minion calling the referendum, and can be used during other referendums. So the extrapolation from "Bleed (+1)" to "Vote (+1)" is not a good one.


Fair enough.

Wake is a keyword, Limited is not.


Why is Limited not a keyword? What is BC's/VEKN's definition of a keyword? Limited would be a keyword in every other CCG.

:gang: :CEL: :FOR: :PRO: :cap6: Gangrel. Noddist. Camarilla. Once each turn, LivesByProxy may burn 1 blood to lose Protean :PRO: until the end of the turn and gain your choice of superior Auspex :AUS:, Obfuscate :OBF:, or Potence :POT: for the current action.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
20 Nov 2018 17:04 - 20 Nov 2018 17:16 #91929 by TwoRazorReign
"Limited" is text simply restricting how many of a card can be played by the player. "Wake" is referring to a game mechanic. You would say "this vampire wakes," but not "this bleed is limited."

It is super confusing to have so many things going with the different kinds of terms being introduced, but hopefully the rulebook will eventually be updated explaining the different terms and how they are used and what they mean.
Last edit: 20 Nov 2018 17:16 by TwoRazorReign.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
21 Nov 2018 02:47 #91939 by LivesByProxy

"Limited" is text simply restricting how many of a card can be played by the player. "Wake" is referring to a game mechanic. You would say "this vampire wakes," but not "this bleed is limited."


With your example, Limited is still a keyword - text restricting how many of a card can be played by the players is still a game mechanic. A keyword is any specific word appearing on a card that condenses rules-text (reducing the need to print the same line of text over and over, along with a bunch of other benefits.)

* Limited was a keyword introduced to replace "You cannot play another action modifier to increase this bleed amount."
* Wake was a keyword introduced to replace "This vampire may block and play reaction cards as though untapped for the rest of the action."
* Tap/Untap itself is a arguably a keyword for "Turn this card 90 degrees to indicate that it has been used."

Its for these reasons that I include titles like Prince as keywords. Each Prince of Wherever is a keyword with the reminder text: "This vampire gets +2 votes in referendums. Only one vampire can have this City title at any given time." or something to that effect.

Mark Rosewater: "A keyword is a word or phrase that is used to substitute for a longer grouping of text. Whenever you see that keyword used it can be substituted one for one every time with the longer text."

Matt Newman & Nate French: "A keyword is a card ability which conveys specific rules to its card. Each keyword has its own rules which can be found in the keyword's own section of the glossary."

I hope to hear Ankha's response. Mark Rosewater seems to think that keywords reduce perceived complexity - seeing "Haste" on an MTG card is a lot less intimidating and mentally taxing than "This creature can attack and tap as soon as it enters the battlefield." And makes for cleaner and simpler looking cards.

:gang: :CEL: :FOR: :PRO: :cap6: Gangrel. Noddist. Camarilla. Once each turn, LivesByProxy may burn 1 blood to lose Protean :PRO: until the end of the turn and gain your choice of superior Auspex :AUS:, Obfuscate :OBF:, or Potence :POT: for the current action.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
21 Nov 2018 07:28 - 21 Nov 2018 07:33 #91940 by Ankha

* Limited was a keyword introduced to replace "You cannot play another action modifier to increase this bleed amount."

No. That part about increasing bleed amounts has been added to the rulebook. "Limited" is not a keyword because it's a reminder text you can remove without changing the behavior of the card.

* Wake was a keyword introduced to replace "This vampire may block and play reaction cards as though untapped for the rest of the action."

Yes, and it's in the rulebook. That's why the whole sentence is now left as a reminder text, but could be removed without changing the behavior of the card.

Mark Rosewater: "A keyword is a word or phrase that is used to substitute for a longer grouping of text. Whenever you see that keyword used it can be substituted one for one every time with the longer text."

Matt Newman & Nate French: "A keyword is a card ability which conveys specific rules to its card. Each keyword has its own rules which can be found in the keyword's own section of the glossary."

Both could apply, but since "limited" is not replacing any text, it's not a keyword.

It is very important to understand that with the revised card text, text between parentheses is always totally optional and can be removed without altering the card. It is a strong indication that such a text cannot be a keyword.

Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Last edit: 21 Nov 2018 07:33 by Ankha.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
21 Nov 2018 10:55 - 21 Nov 2018 10:55 #91943 by TwoRazorReign
Livesbyyproxy: as Akha has described, “limited” is functioning as the parenthetical reminder text portion following a keyword rather than a keyword itself.

VTES never used the term keyword until very, very recently. I think this is unfortunate, because there are many one-word descriptions in VTES that look like keywords but are not. Introducing one-word parenthetical reminder text that also looks like a keyword but actually is not complicates matters further, as now there is a third type of one-word signifier (the three types being “keyword” (wake, unique), “reminder text” (limited), and “card type” (grapple, ammo, location, weapon, etc.)
Last edit: 21 Nov 2018 10:55 by TwoRazorReign.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Bloodartist

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
21 Nov 2018 11:19 #91944 by Ankha

VTES never used the term keyword until very, very recently.

What/who are you calling "VTES" in that sentence?
Keywords are not mentioned in the rulebook, and the fact that "unique" is called a keyword or not bears no consequence.
(Unique is a "trait" by the way, term that appears in both the rulebook and on some cards, but that is currently only defined by a ruling, which is not a good thing).

Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
Moderators: AnkhaKraus
Time to create page: 0.108 seconds
Powered by Kunena Forum