file Fears and concerns about V5

04 May 2019 04:26 #94785 by Luriel
I write this due to some concerns that plague me about the possible implications of implementing 5th edition into VtES and because I feel I'm not the only one having them. I'll try to sort them by relevance (or how much I'm worried by each one of them individually). Keep in mind this is pure speculation and could have nothing to do at all with said implementation.


Forced new clan iconography:

Maybe those of you who don't play the tabletop RPG version of our game are not aware of the fact that V5 has more or less subtly changed all the clan symbols. Probably as a way to mark the beginning of the Paradox Era of the IP. While not that annoying (we've already lived multiple changes in card layout, back and even prior clan symbol changes, I'm looking at you Lasombra and Tzimisce), I must confess I personally find them uglier than the ones we're used to. Some will argue the addition of a gladius to the Ventrue symbol is cool, but I wouldn't trade that for the new Gangrel, Malkavian, Nosferatu and Tremere ones.

Some clans are also given new names: Assamites become Banu Haquim, Followers of Set are now the Ministry and Giovanni will form part of the Hecata (more problems on this later).

Visit https://whitewolf.fandom.com/wiki/Vampire:_The_Masquerade_symbols if you need to see all those new symbols


Discipline consolidation and subsequent "discontinuation" of some Disciplines:

It seems one of the objectives of this edition is that not a single clan has an unique discipline anymore. They've achieved this by combining those said disciplines between themselves or a with a more common one. So far these integrations are:

Protean and Serpentis become Protean (using the Protean symbol).
Quietus and Thaumaturgy become Blood Sorcery (with the Thaumaturgy symbol).
Dementation and Dominate become Dominate (under the Dominate symbol).
Necromancy and Obtenebration become Oblivion (at this very moment it is unknow whether this discipline's symbol will be one ofthe ones before or a new one).

It has also been hinted that Vicissitude and Chimestry will follow the same fate (the first becoming also Protean and the later probably Dominate or Obfuscate).

Some of the lost disciplines' powers have survived as powers from other disciplines (Silence of Death is now an Obfuscate power) or as Amalgam disciplines (basically, a combination discipline. So far only 2 of them: Eyes of the Serpent (Presence+Protean) and Dementation (Dominate+Obfuscate)).

How will be this be translated to VtES? 2 options come to mind. All previous discipline cards become playable with the new oneor only the new one's cards count. Both options have problems.

In the first scenario you get bloated disciplines (Protean would have 119 cards, its original 42 plus 47 from Serpentis and 30 from Vicissitude) which also open some options meant to a single clan to up to 3, blurring the cultural diferences of some clans. This scenario would also have some vampires becoming less desirable disciplinewise due to having multiple consolidated disciplines at the same time.

Second one not only isolates older crypts for some clans from the rest, it undoes the work done to bring up some clans (remember early 2000s Assamite situation in the game?) and prevents further development of the discontinued disciplines (it's not a surprise Tzimisce feel a bit stagnated seeing Vicissitude has only 30 cards and no new non three-way cards since Sword of Caine).

Some will argue that this whole discipline shake up will bring new ideas for cards. To give you some perspective, Auspex has 45 different powers before V5 and only 7 in that edition (which are also very similar, if not the same, to the previous ones. In VtES there are 73 Auspex cards.

Visit https://whitewolf.fandom.com/wiki/Auspex_(VTM) if you need to see for yourselves (you can also check other disciplines).


Discontinuation of some factions/clans:

Before I've stated that Vicissitude and Chimestry will probaby follow the other unique disciplines' fate. I've written "probably" because there's no oficial word neither on that regard nor on the Tzimisce and Ravnos clans. And there won't be on the near future
. Both Mophidius and Onyx Path have released their release schelude up to 2020 and there's no mention of them, the Sabbat, Laibon or any of the bloodlines. So no new cards for them until further notice (2021 the earliest). What is even more worrisome is how what we know will affect them. What place will have the bloodlines in the game if they can't have unique disciplines? There will be Ravnos (or whichever new name they'll have) in V5 after the week of Nightmares?

What about the Hecata? The Hecata seem to be a consolidation of the Giovanni, Samedi, Harbingers of Skulls and surviving Capadocians into a single group. Will they be able to play all those factions cards? None of them?, instead playing new Hecata cards (I guess
Legionnaries and Kazhar's Diary haters will rejoice). And their in-clan disciplines, which will they be? Will we face another City/Country Gangrel antitribu situation where part of a clan has a set of disciplines while the other has another, making it hard tohave a cohesive crypt?


"And then all is for nothing":

There's one thing that I fear more than any or even all the ones before together and that's the possibility of a 6th edition reverting all these changes after they have been implemented into VtES. And it won't be the first time to happen.

Ask any Dungeons and Dragons player about its 4th and 5th editions or any Warhammer RPG player about its 3rd and 4th. Then go to the white wolf subreddit or the Onyx Path forums and see the mood over there. There are already people asking for a 6th edition that
ignores V5 (if I'm to be honest, as a roleplayer I'm with them. V5 has been a personal disappointment).

What then? Would we be forced to follow? How many cards/expansions would become a new balance problem?

If you got here, I owe you an apoogy for the wall of text and would love to know what you think regarding all this.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Lönkka, Lech

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05 May 2019 14:53 - 05 May 2019 14:53 #94795 by LivesByProxy
I think your worrying is unnecessary.

Quick Thoughts:

---I agree the new clan icons are mostly worse.

---Each clan should have a unique discipline that helps define them as a clan. Removing the unique disciplines some clans have is a step in the wrong direction IMO. Unfortunately, Masquerade didn't work with this notion from the beginning, so we not only have a bunch of clans without signature disciplines, but we have 22+ clans and bloodlines, which makes giving a unique discipline for each a really difficult task.

---Representing "merged" disciplines that V5 is pushing is as easy as having a card with a dual discipline requirement. There was another thread on this particular issue, and it seems easy to work around. No need to add new disciplines or consolidate old ones.

---Following V5s changes to clans can be represented by individual cards without sweeping game changes. We don't have to include the Hecata as a clan or sect, but having, for example, actions playable by Giovanni, Samedi, and / or Harbingers is an option.

---I see no reason why VTES must follow V5 so strictly. There is so much vampire media and sources to draw inspiration from - there's no need to get hungup on VTMs particular mythos. IMO, it would be better if the game weren't so closely tied down to the VTM setting. And frankly, I think the card game does a poor job of representing VTMs lore.

:gang: :CEL: :FOR: :PRO: :cap6: Gangrel. Noddist. Camarilla. Once each turn, LivesByProxy may burn 1 blood to lose Protean :PRO: until the end of the turn and gain your choice of superior Auspex :AUS:, Obfuscate :OBF:, or Potence :POT: for the current action.
Last edit: 05 May 2019 14:53 by LivesByProxy. Reason: spacing

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06 May 2019 12:00 #94798 by elotar
Replied by elotar on topic Fears and concerns about V5
V5 was (it's already dead for most of the world) terrible in most aspects, EXCEPT the unification of clans and disciplines - design decision which should be implemented 20 years ago. If it'll manage to somehow influence VtES, than it'll be great for our overbloated game.

:splat: NC Russia
:DEM::san::nec::cap4:
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06 May 2019 18:53 #94805 by Mewcat
Replied by Mewcat on topic Fears and concerns about V5
Might be a good idea for the top brass to let us know what v5 means for vtes. The clan and discipline changes in particular are concerning. If we are looking at changing clan disciplines or removing some altogether that is a massive change.

#ravnoslivesmatter
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07 May 2019 13:10 #94813 by TwoRazorReign
I think the answer might be obvious. V5 was an absolute misguided attempt to reinvent the wheel while pretending it was an extension of the same game released in 1991-1998. If the intention was to return the game to glory, all it really did was get people talking for a month about some "controversial" material, after which V5 was completely forgotten about. It was a stinker that absolutely nobody I know liked. The best thing for VTES to do would be to simply pretend it never happened.

And seriously, what can they do? Ban every card that doesn't fit the theme of V5? Try to awkwardly incorporate V5 material while not really following the source material? Release a completely new game based on shitty V5 source material that, again, nobody I know liked? C'mon...

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07 May 2019 17:48 #94819 by Mewcat
Replied by Mewcat on topic Fears and concerns about V5
It doesn't matter if u don't like it or nobody u know likes it. I have never met anyone who likes imbued and they are still in game.
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