file Remove Decks From TWDA

09 Mar 2020 22:57 #99226 by Sydnelson
Replied by Sydnelson on topic Remove Decks From TWDA

drnlmza wrote:

Sydnelson wrote: But sometimes event organizers post the deck lists here without ask to deck owner permission.


Such as in www.vekn.net/forum/event-reports-and-twd/74009-twd-cariocao-2015-rj-brazil ?

If you don't want further decks in the TWD, that's fine - tell the organisers not to publish them.

But asking for decks to be removed after being public for several years doesn't seem particulatly productive, especially as the decks are published in multiple places - they're in the WD forum posts, where mirrored in the secret library and so forth.


Yes I know, when the deck was publish in internet is impossible to track how many time it is shared. But a place like TWDA is easy to find it.

Again I'm not complaining about TWDA, I like that. I just ask if is possible to request a remove decks from there if owner wants.

Fernando Cesar - Sydnelson
LackeyCCG and OCTGN VtES Mantainer


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10 Mar 2020 11:09 #99230 by TwoRazorReign
I would like some help understanding something: if someone asks to have their decks removed from the TWDA, why is the answer not simply "yes, that is fine"? There's probably a good reason, but I don't know what that reason is. Just curious.

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10 Mar 2020 13:03 #99231 by Kilrauko
Replied by Kilrauko on topic Remove Decks From TWDA

Kraus wrote: This is a fair demand, and to me it should be made possible to omit decks when the player asks that.

EU and GDPR and all that jazz, really.


GDPR deals mostly with the personal data https://gdpr-info.eu/art-4-gdpr/ , unless things have changed. VTES card lists are not considered to be personal data due to definition what personal data is for GDPR and therefore they are not subject to the article 17. https://gdpr-info.eu/art-17-gdpr/ If the person is claiming they have certain immaterial rights to a decklist, this is not the way to do it in the first place as intellectual property based on work of another intellectual property is, well, interesting quaqmire. What's more 3.d of the above linked article 17 protects historical archives even with personal data, provided the data is in public interest as it has to be weighted against the personal interest (of the requester). Whether or not collecting and hosting a few decades old archive that has served how many searches and people globally fits that definition is up to the possible courts if someone wants to push request for article 17 for their personal data and gets refusal to it and decides to raise it in court.

However the person's name, location etc. either directly or indirectly is clear personal data and I would argue removal of those by request from VEKN due to TWDA related forum posts is not " likely to render impossible or seriously impair the achievement of the objectives of that processing". After all it's Tournament Winning Deck Archive not Tournament Winners and their Decks Archive. So the easiest solution in accordance with GDPR article 17 request with concent withdrawal I would take is to keep the decks we're now discussing about but remove the personal data associated with it while maintaining non-personal data that's required for the archive. If there's commentary/text associated with it that points to the name and/or contact information it can be handled the same. Here it's matter of contacting administrators directly, on other sites it's the same and they can see things very differently from these viewpoints.

Naturally that GDPR request also means clearing the VEKN ID as well as it's easy to cross reference VEKN tournament and dates or even position in TWDA by cross referencing what comes before it and after to VEKN event and therefore id, giving one a name and other information in the prince list (in this case). GPDR article 17 request should ensure those are cleared as well unless VEKN member id list somehow fits to exception and the registry keeper wants to deny that request. Same goes for other identifying information possible inserted like location, signature, contact information etc.

Clearing VEKN ID of personal data shouldn't be a obstacle if the wish for privacy is genuine as being a prince and maintaining personal privacy are at odds due to the way princes should act as VEKN contacts on their area. Some people might have contacted you because you advertise in your signature and being in the VEKN prince list that you are volunteer who promotes and arranges demos, it's not too big leap for logic to assume you like the game and wish to help people with it, aka talk about your decks. As that position is completely voluntary stepping down from it is matter of personal choice and I feel VEKN as membership organisation should honor such requests when they happen to maintain the spirit of "continued health of V:TES". It should ensure personal data related to VEKN has been removed and in the player registry/event calendar your ID entry just remains as placeholder to ensure the tables work. Without personal data it cannot be backtracked to you via this site, however getting other possible sources to match is irrelevant to be talked here as it's up to each provider to determine how they handle Article 17 requests. I'm sure if the administrators honor the article 17 requests they do it fully and contact third parties they've granted your personal data to and inform them of such request.

With new VEKN ID it's up to you to say to tournament officials you do not wish for them to take a look at your deck in fear of them memorizing it in case they post it without permission along with your name. And depending on how much you respect other players, you might wish to step down from final table seating in favor of someone else to minimize the possibility that you win and are asked to provide the decklist for TWDA as the event organizer has to report in certain form that is shown in the stickies.

Now for requests that are not immaterial rights covered or handle personal rights, well, contacting administrators directly and hoping they are favorable is your best bet. After all we live in a world where you either have rights to something or you don't, and without rights you need to hope the person receiving request is favorable to you.

TwoRazorReign wrote: I would like some help understanding something: if someone asks to have their decks removed from the TWDA, why is the answer not simply "yes, that is fine"? There's probably a good reason, but I don't know what that reason is. Just curious.


It's a moral conundrum on whether or not and what kind of information can/should/should not be forgotten. Some argue everything has to be maintained in archive form, be it drivers licence, birth records, shopping lists, keycard usage etc etc as in time those become historical records of our time (compared to the historical records we use now to understand the past) and are way for future generations to interpret our time. Choosing what to store is like burning unwanted books and to them China's social security credit is just one step towards a society where everything is recorded and maintained (to big brother watches fan this should show the absurdity). Some people argue nothing should be maintained, privacy tops everything and even people like Hitler (playing the Hitler card here to point the absurdity on other end) have right to be forgotten with their records erased from history. And in the middle is myriad of various opinions on who should be stored (public figures okay, every citizen no), how recent data (days, months, years, decades for say Police camera data captured on their person) and what subject (shopping details for advertisement, scientific thesis, VTES winning deck lists.) Some people believe person owns everything they create and should have absolute control on it, others don't, and then there's the inbetween. Usually people who maintain archives are more pro-archive then not, as if they weren't, they would not spend the time and effert to keep it in the first place. That's why I can perfectly understand Ankha's earlier reply as keeping the archive whole has value in itself and if something is removed from it the can of worms of "what deserves to be taken off and for what reason" is opened. As long as that's not the case and the can stays closed, people understand what it is, what it does and what it contains going forward.

I'm personally very pro privacy right where individual can determine their data during their lifetime, hence I listed how using article 17 above can work in this. But I also know some people rightly claim archives without personal information are exempt and hence the easiest solution is to work with personal data, as opposed with the possibly that deck lists are intellectual property, possibly not. It's however up to Sydnelson how they want to aproach it with the administrators of the sites who in turn have their own moral viewpoints on the subject. Somewhere there a agreement is either found or disagreement is achieved, I recommend GDPR article 17 as that has been agreed on societal level already and enables all sides to understand how to go forward and with what consequences if there's no agreement on whether or not it applies here.

Trust in Jan Pieterzoon.

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10 Mar 2020 13:50 #99232 by TwoRazorReign

Kilrauko wrote:

TwoRazorReign wrote: I would like some help understanding something: if someone asks to have their decks removed from the TWDA, why is the answer not simply "yes, that is fine"? There's probably a good reason, but I don't know what that reason is. Just curious.


It's a moral conundrum on whether or not and what kind of information can/should/should not be forgotten. Some argue everything has to be maintained in archive form, be it drivers licence, birth records, shopping lists, keycard usage etc etc as in time those become historical records of our time (compared to the historical records we use now to understand the past) and are way for future generations to interpret our time. Choosing what to store is like burning unwanted books and to them China's social security credit is just one step towards a society where everything is recorded and maintained (to big brother watches fan this should show the absurdity). Some people argue nothing should be maintained, privacy tops everything and even people like Hitler (playing the Hitler card here to point the absurdity on other end) have right to be forgotten with their records erased from history. And in the middle is myriad of various opinions on who should be stored (public figures okay, every citizen no), how recent data (days, months, years, decades for say Police camera data captured on their person) and what subject (shopping details for advertisement, scientific thesis, VTES winning deck lists.) Some people believe person owns everything they create and should have absolute control on it, others don't, and then there's the inbetween. Usually people who maintain archives are more pro-archive then not, as if they weren't, they would not spend the time and effert to keep it in the first place.

That's why I can perfectly understand Ankha's earlier reply as keeping the archive whole has value in itself and if something is removed from it the can of worms of "what deserves to be taken off and for what reason" is opened. As long as that's not the case and the can stays closed, people understand what it is, what it does and what it contains going forward.


Sorry, but I just don't agree that the situation here presents a moral conundrum akin to those you stated above. If the reason to not allow a VEKN member (and fellow player) to have their deck lists removed from an archive is that it could create a bunch of ethical issues for VEKN regarding curation of that archive and potentially devalue the archive, I would think that the VEKN should probably get over it (and themselves) really fast.

It's a card game about vampires. Just let the player remove their decks for any reason they wish. Seems like common sense, but am waiting to hear a good reason to not allow it (there still may be one).

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10 Mar 2020 15:44 - 10 Mar 2020 15:45 #99233 by Kushiel
Replied by Kushiel on topic Remove Decks From TWDA

TwoRazorReign wrote: Sorry, but I just don't agree that the situation here presents a moral conundrum akin to those you stated above. If the reason to not allow a VEKN member (and fellow player) to have their deck lists removed from an archive is that it could create a bunch of ethical issues for VEKN regarding curation of that archive and potentially devalue the archive, I would think that the VEKN should probably get over it (and themselves) really fast.

It's a card game about vampires.


This argument doesn't work, since it cuts both ways. If it's just a card game about vampires (presumably something you're citing to indicate that this conundrum or pseudo-conundrum is of no real consequence to anyone), it's just as easy to argue that people requesting removal of their decklists from the archive should probably get over it (and themselves) really fast.
Last edit: 10 Mar 2020 15:45 by Kushiel.

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10 Mar 2020 16:08 #99235 by Lönkka
Replied by Lönkka on topic Remove Decks From TWDA
One of the very strengths of TWDA is the fact that it is more or less complete.

Thus it is an immense resource and of enormous value to players thus helping the community.

Also it gives insights on the (past) trends and the more it has holes, the less useful it becomes.

Do we really need to start adding a "by participating in the tournament you agree to have your decklist shared until eternity" -clause to the tournaments?

Fernando, I implore you not to go this route and start a very harmful trend for the game and the community, mate!

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