New set in 2012

TorranceCircle wrote:

I agree with this.

Two other things:
-bundi + strike at the true flesh seems good to me, throw in some aditional stikes and you can send a vamp to torpor easily.

-after you block, selective silence + taste of death + rotshreck seems good too.

Please don't quote half a page just to say "I agree." It takes up a lot of space and adds nothing to the discussion. There is a Thank You button that you can press if you simply cannot contain yourself.

Bundi (or any melee) with Strike at the True Flesh and additional strikes seems much weaker than a .44 Magnum. But you make a good point about Taste of Death. If can be competitive with Chiropteran Marauder and Breath of the Dragon, is Selective Silence + Taste of Death really that bad?

echiang wrote:

Lech wrote:

Black Sunrise is just a wake, most discipline based wakes are better (eyes of argus, predator communion, sense the savage way, speak with spirits) and offer intercept in many cases.

Eyes of Argus doesn't untap you (the trick with Black Sunrise is to untap all your guys on a +1 stealth action that you don't successfully block). Predator's Communion can't be used against allies. Sense the Savage Way requires big vampires. Speak with Spirits requires a rare Bloodlines discipline.

Yet all those cards are more powerful than black sunrise. Untap is good for deflection and enkil cog and as additional wake. It's not bad card but wake is better in certain situations too, and with on the qui vive discipline requiring wake are not big pro for discipline unless they do something special, black sunrise dont do anything special.

echiang wrote:

Deed is pre-emptive card that is worse than seduction and have pre-requisites that make it unplayable non-star deck and there is too costly to be worth it.

Seduction doesn't prevent your bleed from getting bounced or reduced.

But seduction dont cost blood and they can deflect with any other vampire anyway, it's not 1 acting vampire versus 1 reacting vampire.

echiang wrote:

Superior loss is inferior govern or presence +2 bleed.

Comparing it to the best cards in the game isn't very useful.

Auspex, Animalism, Celerity, Chimerstry, Fortitude, Necromancy, Obtenebration, Potence, Protean, Serpentis, and Vicissitude would all love an action that costs 1 blood and lets you bleed at +2 at superior.

Comparing it to just inferior level is useful. Look, it's worse than just inferior level of card, without taking superior into consideration.

Animalism have deep song, i don't think it would love to trade it for loss. Vicissitude have changeling, i doubt players would like to trade it for loss. Just like players wouldn't trade nocturn for it. All other disciplines have actions that are better than loss.

echiang wrote:

Retain is just weak, and will be weak. Window of blood gain is narrow and celerity cards that cost blood are anyway not worth playing in most cases. It's action that is easy to block as it have just +1 innate stealth. Overall, it's wallpaper.

Retain is especially good with Celerity cards. I agree it is not as useful for Quietus, but it still has its uses.

There are many other cards that give you blood, even generic ones, that give more blood at the cost of action.

echiang wrote:

Selective Silence is just weak card, setting range that cost blood to play strike card that cost blood and deal with hitback and combat ends is plain awful combat strategy.

Range setting trumps maneuvers. Set range to close and then use for Immortal Grapple. Selective Silence to long guarantees you can play your S:CE (and not be grappled yourself).

How many vampires have and ? Let me see, 3. I never seen anyone using ss in deck including them.

echiang wrote:

Strike is not worth it with immortal grapple and long range combat and resource-intensive melee combat based on quietus. It just give additional damage and prevention is not something you are facing all the time.

If you're not facing Grapple, you can use Weighted Walking Stick and with 4-cap Sajid (or 3-cap Harika with the Path of Blood) play as many Strike at the True Flesh as you want.

You never have to worry about long range combat since you can just set range to close with Selective Silence.

Strike is free, don't require path of blood. You can use as many as you want, but trading 1 resource for 1 damage is not really worth it, especially considering most widely used combat strategies trump it.

Adding additional cards to the combat chain is not very efficient.

echiang wrote:

Succulent vitae is wallpaper.

Thin Blood is also wallpaper, require close range to trade 1 blood for 2 blood.

I disagree. They're both good cards. Not amazing, but hardly wallpaper.

Good cards ? When compared to mummify they are, compared to other combat cards (thin blood) and blood gain action cards (succulent vitae act nearly as one) they are worse than generic cards like target:vitals and blood tears of kephran.

echiang wrote:

Taste of Death is inferior to Breath of the Dragon, lots of diciplines would love to see their own version of breath of the dragon.

Yes, and Breath of the Dragon is worse than Conflagration. So what's your point?

Most disciplines don't have access to agg. They'd love something like Taste of Death.

Thamaturgy's Burst of Sunlight and Walk of Flame are far worse than Taste of Death. Heck, I was thrilled when they got outferior Flames of the Netherworld (which is still worse than Taste of Death). I was happy with that, rather than complaining about how it's worse than Taste of Death, or worse than Breath of the Dragon, or worse than Conflagration.

Animalism has Song in the Dark, which is much worse than Taste of Death.

Protean has Body Flare, which is much worse than Taste of Death. And let's not even get into Body of Sun or Mythic Form.

Necromancy has Breath of Thanatos and Torment the Soul, which are far worse.

Yep, it's better than some cards out there. Still not saving grace for combat. Also, body flare and burst and walk aren't weaker than taste of death, they have their uses where they are strictly better.

echiang wrote:

Are you seriously arguing that quietus is on the same powerlevel as dominate or presence, or even animalism ?

No, not even in the slightest.

I'm just pointing out that Quietus has some good cards, and that there are some decks worth building.

Not every discipline can be Dominate, or Presence or Animalism. (Or Obeah or Temporis for that matter).

By definition, top-tier means that there is some sort of hierarchy. If every discipline (or clan) was top-tier, then the term would sort of be meaningless.

Quietus has had issues in the past, but it has gotten significantly better over time. In fact, I think it's surpassed Necromancy at this point (which started off strong, but has tapered off significantly).

So it's second worst discipline out of 17 core disciplines (i would argue that necromancy is still better as it have access to some great cards like shambling hordes and call the hungry dead). Quietus is sometimes used as vampires with certain traits like clan or special happens to have it.

Why would you create deck that is plain inferior to other decks who play in similar way ? Creating decks with quietus is just like it.

@TorranceCircle: Why would you ever play bundi ? It's such a weak card.

Dorrinal wrote:

Bundi (or any melee) with Strike at the True Flesh and additional strikes seems much weaker than a .44 Magnum. But you make a good point about Taste of Death. If can be competitive with Chiropteran Marauder and Breath of the Dragon, is Selective Silence + Taste of Death really that bad?

comes with ability to block thanks to in clan. It helps if you can block the actions to play that rot. But even if would have same amount of , it would be way worse. You need to spend 2 cards and 2 blood to play rot, where in case you need one or the other, and is playable under grapple if you have both (and cost 1 less blood).

Please don't quote half a page just to say "I agree." It takes up a lot of space and adds nothing to the discussion. There is a Thank You button that you can press if you simply cannot contain yourself.

Ok, I will mark that down sorry I offended you. Also, I think I added two other points, one of which you seemed to think makes sense.

Bundi (or any melee) with Strike at the True Flesh and additional strikes seems much weaker than a .44 Magnum. But you make a good point about Taste of Death. If can be competitive with Chiropteran Marauder and Breath of the Dragon, is Selective Silence + Taste of Death really that bad?

In the post that I quoted, it was responding to Lech saying strike at the true flesh was bad because immortal grapple stops melee weapons (and a .44 for that matter). If I am not mistaken, bundi can be used when grappled and strike at the true flesh prevents fortitude. You do not have to manuever to close, although you may have to maneuver back (unless you use silence of death to set range). If your deck is built to work with melee combat that strikes for 3 with the bundi + SatTF, I wouldn't say it is "much weaker" than .44.

Without playing any other cards, Bundi has all the weaknesses of .44 Magnum, but also loses to other ranged combat. It's inherently less efficient. Bundi makes Strike at the True Flesh better, but SatTF doesn't make Bundi a better choice than .44 Magnum.

Non-existant user wrote:

Just a comment on the size of the set (20-30 cards). That is not enough to fill the gap in Sabbat group 5. Will the next set be library cards only? Is there a plan to get vampires out later?

Once we get the new expansion thingy rolling, perhaps we'll be getting more frequent, if smaller, expansions.

I'm all for smaller expansions.
Besides I'm guessing the proccess of getting even this number of cards out will take quite a long time. Just imagine how long it would take if the expansion was the size we've grown accustomed in the past.