exclamation-circle About diversity and inclusivity (including VEKN Rules Team Rulings 05/07/2020)

07 Jul 2020 07:07 #100275 by Ashur
This announcement includes an official RTR:
https://www.blackchantry.com/2020/07/05/about-diversity-and-inclusivity-including-vekn-rules-team-rulings-05-07-2020/

For your convenience, this is the part about additions to the Banned list (although please read the whole statement in the link above):

Rules Team Ruling – RTR 05/07/2020
From 1st August 2020 the following five cards will be banned in Vampire: Elder Kindred Network sanctioned Vampire: The Eternal Struggle tournaments:
Gypsies
Rom Gypsy
Tarbaby Jack
Terrorists
Tsigane
There may be other changes as the VEKN evaluates the card pool. Where possible we will design new cards to fit those spaces.

"My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

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07 Jul 2020 16:44 #100277 by darkal
answer made to: Henrik Klippström - Marketing Director on facebook


Henrik Klippström so there dear, there is a mistake. Gipsy is racist only for you. I lived 25 years with gipsies who are proud of it and were deported by the Nazis because they were gipsy. It's community is absolutely not stigmatized by this term and they even have a music group called gipsy king! this term is therefore only racist for some and negating it can be an offense for us just as the reverse for others! So why listen to one part of the world and not another?
We're just here to alert you to the bans and other rule changes that are taking place that would alter the fundamentals of our game.
Your last banns can open the way to others under pretexts just as far-fetched.
Where is the line that will stop you? today Gipsy, tomorrow what?
When has your idea of ​​community spliting been an official proposal from you?
The France that I represent is one of the 1st nation present during international events in number, you want us to leave the official tournaments?
I do not agree with your communication, nor your recent course of action, and for once, I come out of my reserve to express our grievances. We do not agree to the establishment of a free vampire contest and for the bans of the cards that seem to you to be rasists.
Is that clear enough for you as an explanation?

Alain Greiner NC France
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08 Jul 2020 10:02 #100279 by Ashur

darkal wrote: answer made to: Henrik Klippström - Marketing Director on facebook


Alright, I´ll try to answer this. I = Ashur = Henrik.

darkal wrote: Henrik Klippström so there dear, there is a mistake. Gipsy is racist only for you. I lived 25 years with gipsies who are proud of it and were deported by the Nazis because they were gipsy. It's community is absolutely not stigmatized by this term and they even have a music group called gipsy king! this term is therefore only racist for some and negating it can be an offense for us just as the reverse for others! So why listen to one part of the world and not another?


This action was taken not because of you, anyone you know nor necessarily anyone in France. The reason it was taken was these cards are racist slurs in some countries and/or contexts and/or depicts things in strange ways that Black Chantry Productions do not agree with.

darkal wrote: We're just here to alert you to the bans and other rule changes that are taking place that would alter the fundamentals of our game.
Your last banns can open the way to others under pretexts just as far-fetched.
Where is the line that will stop you? today Gipsy, tomorrow what?


There are other problematic things, and these will be handled as they turn up, but we do not see a risk of a "slippery slope" here. I denounce that type of argumentation totally, as it suggests that Black Chantry Productions are not capable of making well thought-out decisions on a case-by-case basis. We are.

darkal wrote: When has your idea of ​​community spliting been an official proposal from you?
The France that I represent is one of the 1st nation present during international events in number, you want us to leave the official tournaments?


This is brought out of context. I have never been for such a split and I believe everyone is aware of that. What I said was that such a split is always an option, but I NEVER said I would like it.

darkal wrote: I do not agree with your communication, nor your recent course of action, and for once, I come out of my reserve to express our grievances. We do not agree to the establishment of a free vampire contest and for the bans of the cards that seem to you to be rasists.
Is that clear enough for you as an explanation?

Alain Greiner NC France


And that is your privilege, although I don't know if it's supported by a clear majority of the French players. But like we now have stated many times, this decision was not taken based on the Roms situation in France, or on your or the French player community´s opinions. I do not believe it is the business of a 1990´s card game producer to choose a name for or depict any modern day ethnical group, neither is it the business of a 2020´s card game producer, or its player community. I stand for that belief.

And please don´t mix the contest playtest into this. That is an entirely different issue.

"My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."
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08 Jul 2020 10:36 #100280 by Vlad
What about Gitane St Claire ?
Gitan/e means gypsy in french.

Or Fleecing the Gaje ? Which means "stealing from non gypsies"

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Alastor Grand Nord

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08 Jul 2020 10:40 #100282 by Vlad
IMHO you should have stated that you were going through a process to rename some cards which pose problems in certain countries...

Banning them was a mistake.

Even if later you changed your announcement and told about filling the spaces of those banned cards...

And btw, Alain expressed the way the majority of French players feel about those bannings...

Pentex Board of Directors

Prince of Oye Plage
Alastor Grand Nord

:gang:

:ani: :cel: :chi: :FOR: :PRO:
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08 Jul 2020 12:40 #100284 by Lech
Looks like Central European nations (except perhaps Germany) are also mostly not satisfied with the bans, as far as i can tell.

From my perspective, given information about it from others, i don't think that Tarbaby Jack is widespread enough to warrant change, as it is also used in neutral/positive concepts in majority of cases AND is lore character.

When it comes to Tsigane, it's very unoriginal name and name change is totally warranted, the sooner the better. It's like calling some latin-american Latino, and show maybe not bad will but stunning ignorance.

Terrorists would be salvageable with other art and no clan requirement, but the card is so bad that straight out ban is best solution, instead print new card that is playable.

Gypsy cards are tough one, i don't really agree that they are racist slurs (as they are widely used by Romani to describe themselves), but i wouldn't mind simple name change. Gangrel card is useless so i wouldn't mind just ban

Overall, most of those cards could be put on TEMPORARY BAN (except full ban terrorists and gangrel's gypsies), and work on replacement. This way, you would avoid huge outcry.

Also, many people fear that there will be further bans, especially when it comes to sensitive cards (all indie main clans, midget, bum's rush etc). Hugh spoken that the fear is unwarranted, but i'd like to get confirmation and discussion (not post on NC mailing list 48h before implementing changes).

Last question is BML support. Due to hugely racists remarks of controversial BML organisation co-founder, it's better to distance yourself from it. The ideas to have just society is good, their implementation is not. Of course, you can ignore that point, but it's way more controversial that you might think.

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Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.

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