file "Color Wheel" and VtES

31 May 2018 15:33 #87788 by elotar
Replied by elotar on topic "Color Wheel" and VtES

Sambomb wrote: I think we could see more combination disciplines in the game, they are based on “metadisciplines” of the rpg.


combo-disciplines in VTM was designed because there are just 5 dots in each, they were already fixed in core book, so if you want to add some effect to anything other than :tha: or :nec: (where it's possible to have different paths) then you need to use this (or go for 6+ level, which is too high for most player characters).

We don't have such problem in VtES, so multi-discipline cards are actually a bad design - there are less useful, than single-discipline, so we a clattering "card world" for non-optimal gains.

:splat: NC Russia
:DEM::san::nec::cap4:

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31 May 2018 16:12 #87789 by elotar
Replied by elotar on topic "Color Wheel" and VtES

LivesByProxy wrote:
I think the problem with that discipline combination (and others) is that it has very little ousting power. None of those disciplines have great +bleed effects, and there are so few ways of burning pool otherwise, or directly contributing to ousting prey.


:AUS: also is not hot on ousting power, but you can play weenie with it just fine, and there are several multi-discipline archetypes with it, many of which without :dom: or :pre:.

I think you are mixing local and general problem. We can add Conditioning and Deflection to all disciplines, but we will not achieve diversity - we will actually went the other way and get homogeneity of the playing field. What the difference it is for a gameplay what disciplines you use if all you do is just bleed with stealth?

General problem is that we are thinking about disciplines separately, or sometimes in double combinations, while real vampires usually got three or more. I don't know do we really need to specifically design way to win into each clan combination, but I think we should not even think to, for example, add assamites :obf: :cel: :qui: to the game with disciplines do not complimenting each other in any way.

They made a Loss for the :qui:. It helps - now you can bleed with stealth. But still you got useless :cel: here as well as that other clans just bleed with stealth better.

:splat: NC Russia
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31 May 2018 16:30 #87790 by elotar
Replied by elotar on topic "Color Wheel" and VtES
So to use analogue with Color pie - assamite discipline spread are like a sixth color. Theoretically you can add as many as you like to initial 5 in mtg, but if you already got all effects divided between them and you need colors to differ, you will struggle to make sixth+ colors to do anything useful.

:splat: NC Russia
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31 May 2018 17:48 #87793 by LivesByProxy
Replied by LivesByProxy on topic "Color Wheel" and VtES

Elotar wrote: I think we should not even think to, for example, add assamites :obf: :cel: :qui: to the game with disciplines do not complimenting each other in any way.


I agree. I also think that VTES should have taken more liberty with the VTM source material when it came to what clans get what disciplines, so that each clans has disciplines with good synergy, but that is just my opinion.

Elotar wrote: So to use analogue with Color pie - Assamite discipline spread are like a sixth color. Theoretically you can add as many as you like to initial 5 in mtg, but if you already got all effects divided between them and you need colors to differ, you will struggle to make sixth+ colors to do anything useful.


The Quietus discipline has some pretty unique effects but why isn't there an Assamite archetype? My guess is that there is not 3-5 select cards that really help them win enough for enough decks to be built around, so an Assamite archetype does not form, even if some Assamite deck occasionally wins a tournament.

Elotar wrote: We can add Conditioning and Deflection to all disciplines, but we will not achieve diversity - we will actually went the other way and get homogeneity of the playing field. What the difference it is for a gameplay what disciplines you use if all you do is just bleed with stealth?


I actually don't think we should add Conditioning and Deflection cards to all disciplines. I think Conditioning and Deflection are too strong for too little effort, and there is nothing really unique about either of them, other than them being so strong.

What I want to see is more unique and interesting ways of bleeding and burning pool and ousting your prey. If a discipline gets a +bleed effect, it has to come with stipulations and conditions that make it unique to that discipline.

If we look at Magic, each color gets "creature removal" - cards that discard your opponents blockers. White removes them from the game, but gives the opponent some recompense like more life-points. Blue returns the blocker to the opponent's hand. Red deals damage to the opponent's blocker directly, potentially killing it. Black simply kills the blocker. And Green actually doesn't have any direct way to get rid of potential blockers. The 4 colors that do get rid of blockers do it in different ways.

In the early days of VTES, Army of Rats could be stacked (or were thought to have stacked), so one archetype was the Army of Rats swarm to oust your prey. That archetype was obsoleted by card errata, but more cards that burn pool like Army of Rats could create new and interesting archetypes.

Here is a "pool damage" card for Protean :pro: that can be thought of as +2/+3 bleed, except it does something very different!:

Volatility
Action
+1 stealth action.
:pro: Your prey places two pool on one of their uncontrolled minions without any blood.
:PRO: As above, but places three pool instead.

:gang: :CEL: :FOR: :PRO: :cap6: Gangrel. Noddist. Camarilla. Once each turn, LivesByProxy may burn 1 blood to lose Protean :PRO: until the end of the turn and gain your choice of superior Auspex :AUS:, Obfuscate :OBF:, or Potence :POT: for the current action.

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31 May 2018 19:22 #87795 by self biased
Replied by self biased on topic "Color Wheel" and VtES

LivesByProxy wrote: I agree. I also think that VTES should have taken more liberty with the VTM source material when it came to what clans get what disciplines, so that each clans has disciplines with good synergy, but that is just my opinion.


it has always bothered me that only some clans have a discipline that is uniquely theirs. Its an issue with the source material, which isn't likely to get fixed.
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31 May 2018 22:03 - 31 May 2018 22:03 #87799 by elotar
Replied by elotar on topic "Color Wheel" and VtES

LivesByProxy wrote:
I agree. I also think that VTES should have taken more liberty with the VTM source material when it came to what clans get what disciplines, so that each clans has disciplines with good synergy, but that is just my opinion.


Or we can design the discipline effects so they will have synergy ;)

LivesByProxy wrote: The Quietus discipline has some pretty unique effects but why isn't there an Assamite archetype? My guess is that there is not 3-5 select cards that really help them win enough for enough decks to be built around, so an Assamite archetype does not form, even if some Assamite deck occasionally wins a tournament.


They don't win because they got stealth, discipline with aggravated strikes and discipline with additional strikes. No combination of this affects are of any use together.

LivesByProxy wrote: What I want to see is more unique and interesting ways of bleeding and burning pool and ousting your prey. If a discipline gets a +bleed effect, it has to come with stipulations and conditions that make it unique to that discipline.

If we look at Magic, each color gets "creature removal" - cards that discard your opponents blockers. White removes them from the game, but gives the opponent some recompense like more life-points. Blue returns the blocker to the opponent's hand. Red deals damage to the opponent's blocker directly, potentially killing it. Black simply kills the blocker. And Green actually doesn't have any direct way to get rid of potential blockers. The 4 colors that do get rid of blockers do it in different ways.

In the early days of VTES, Army of Rats could be stacked (or were thought to have stacked), so one archetype was the Army of Rats swarm to oust your prey. That archetype was obsoleted by card errata, but more cards that burn pool like Army of Rats could create new and interesting archetypes.

Here is a "pool damage" card for Protean :pro: that can be thought of as +2/+3 bleed, except it does something very different!:

Volatility
Action
+1 stealth action.
:pro: Your prey places two pool on one of their uncontrolled minions without any blood.
:PRO: As above, but places three pool instead.


We got something like Choirs, aka "not bleed action with a waky discipline which burns pool". I'm not sure it's a way to go - it still is in the same logic, there just is no "bleed" word and a little different card interaction involved, but it not making gameplay any significantly different.

Army of Rats on the other hand - I think was a mistake that it was errated. It was really cool original victory condition for the clans, lacking bleed and political options. Maybe it should be made :ani: ... :ANI: present effect, so you will not weenie spam it.

:splat: NC Russia
:DEM::san::nec::cap4:
Last edit: 31 May 2018 22:03 by elotar.

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