file Tournament Scoring

31 Jan 2013 16:13 #44668 by Jeff Kuta
Tournament Scoring was created by Jeff Kuta
Moving part of the discussion to a different thread.

First, for reference, here are the rules. As has been pointed out, the rules for Tournaments are (necessarily) different from the rules for a single game.

From the Rulebook:

Your goal is to accumulate the most victory points by destroying the influence held by rival Methuselahs.


and

At the end of the game, the winner is the player with the most victory points, even if she has been ousted.


From the Tournament Rules:


3.7. Determining a Game Winner

There are three different types of scoring points in V:TES tournaments:

Game Wins are awarded to the winner of each game.
Victory Points are awarded when a player's prey is ousted and when a player survives a round (or as otherwise specified in the game rules or by effects of cards played, but with only a half Victory Point awarded for withdrawal).
Tournament Points are awarded based on a player's table ranking at the end of a round.

3.7.1. Game Win Scoring

A player receives a Game Win at the end of a game in which they have received at least two (2) Victory Points and have more Victory Points than any other player in the game. (No game win is awarded in the case of ties.)


3.7.2. Victory Point Scoring

A player receives one Victory Point each time his or her prey is ousted during a game (or as otherwise indicated in the V:TES game rules or by cards played during the game).

Unlike the standard rules, however, a player receives only a half Victory Point for withdrawing, not the full Victory Point the normal rules award.

A player receives a half Victory Point if he or she has not been ousted when the time limit is reached, marking the end of the round, unless that player is the last one surviving at the table, in which case (as indicated in the V:TES game rules) the player receives a full Victory Point, as normal.

With all the Victory Points recorded, players are then ranked at their table from first through fifth place. The player with the highest total Victory Points places first, and so on.


3.7.3. Tournament Point Scoring

Five-player table: First place receives 60 Tournament Points, second place receives 48 Tournament Points, third place receives 36 Tournament Points, fourth place receives 24 Tournament Points, and fifth place receives 12 Tournament Points.

Four-player table: Players are ranked first, second, fourth, and fifth - third place is taken by the "table bye" position, an empty position.

If more than one player is tied for a particular table ranking, the tournament points are averaged (see section 3.7.4 - Scoring Examples).


3.7.4. Scoring Examples

Example (five-player table): Players A and C ousted one prey each. Players B and D were ousted by A and C, and did not oust any prey during the game. Player E did not oust any prey, but survived the round (along with A and C).

Therefore, Players A and C each receive one and one-half Victory Points - one Victory Point for ousting one prey, and one-half Victory Point for surviving the round. Player E receives one-half Victory Point for surviving the round. Players B and D receive no Victory Points.

Players A and C tie for first place (first and second) at the table, so each receives 54 Tournament Points ([60 + 48] / 2 = 54). Since they are tied (and since neither scored at least 2 Victory Points), no Game Win is awarded. Player E is clearly in third place, and receives 36 Tournament Points. Players B and D tie for fourth (fourth and fifth) place, and each receives 18 Tournament Points ([24 + 12] /2 = 18).

Example 2 (four-player table): Player A ousts one prey and survives the round. Player B was ousted by Player A. Players C and D did not oust any prey during the game, but both survived the round.

Therefore, Player A receives one and one-half Victory Points - one Victory Point for ousting one prey, and one-half Victory Point for surviving the round. Player B receives no Victory Points, and Players C and D each receive one-half Victory Points for surviving the round.

Player A finishes in first place at the table, and receives 60 Tournament Points. Players C and D tie for second (second and fourth, because third place at the table goes to the "table bye"), and each receive 36 Tournament Points ([48 + 24] / 2 = 36). Player B finishes in fifth place with 12 Tournament Points.


3.7.5. Final Round Scoring

The player with the highest total of Victory Points from the final round only is the tournament winner. In the event of a tie, the players' rankings at the end of the preliminary rounds will be the deciding tiebreaker. The rest of the finalists tie for second, with no additional criteria considered to attempt to break that tie.

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31 Jan 2013 16:31 #44670 by Jeff Kuta
Replied by Jeff Kuta on topic Re: Tournament Scoring
I think there must be a better way to encourage Methuselahs to accumulate as many victory points as possible during a tournament game. Due to the multi-round structure, Game Wins take the highest priority when ranking players. But, because a Game Win can be earned with merely 2 VPs (and more than everyone else) or 2.5 VPs (if the game times out), there is only a small marginal incentive to go for additional VPs when you might jeopardize your position. This can lead to all sorts of deal-making for victory points. While such deals are "part of the game," they can lead to convoluted situations such as king-making and withdraw deals which may undermine the fundamental predator-prey relationship of V:TES.

So, there may be a better way. I hope this thread allows for discussion of changes to the way tournaments are scored, in case they are worth pursuing.

I'll start off with two proposals:

1) A Game Win may be awarded only when the game comes to its conclusion with only one Methuselah left standing.

or

2) When a Methuselah earns a Game Win, it is worth 1 "Game Point" plus however many victory points the Methuselah earned as a fraction of the total available, times 0.5.

For example, in a 5 player-game, M earns 5 VPs. They get 1.5 GPs = 1 + (0.5)*(5/5). If they earned 2.5 VPs, they get 1.25 GPs = 1 + (0.5)*(2.5/5). If they earned 4 VPs, they get 1.4 GPs = 1 + (0.5)*(4/5).

In a 4-player game, M earns 4 VPs. They get 1.5 GPs = 1 + (0.5)*(4/4). If they earned 2.0 VPs, they get 1.25 GPs = 1 + (0.5)*(2/4). If they earned 2.5 GPs, they get 1.3125 GPs = 1 + (0.5)*(2.5/4).

This is designed to acknowledge that not all Game Wins are the same. It fully encourages players to earn every VP possible since they all affect their top-level score in the standings. There may be cases where VP deals are possible, but players will truly be giving up something important if they make the deal. That is to say, if you have your Game Win, you still want more.

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31 Jan 2013 16:53 #44671 by Robba Yaga
Replied by Robba Yaga on topic Re: Tournament Scoring
The type of deal making that you're referring to drives me nuts as often happens when someone arbitrarily decides they cannot get a GW and so starts dealing with another player (whom they perceive to be their strongest "cross-table ally") to divide up the table long before the table is truly decided.

I strongly approve of the second suggestion you have here as its also notoriously easier to get a GW at a 4-player table rather than a 5 player table and with this system, suddenly not all GWs are created equal.

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31 Jan 2013 17:12 - 31 Jan 2013 17:17 #44672 by Boris The Blade

1) A Game Win may be awarded only when the game comes to its conclusion with only one Methuselah left standing.

That is a very bad idea. If someone has 2.5VPS, he has ousted two preys already. Had they been the last two on the table, he would have his GW3. He did his job on the table, it is the other players who didn't. Removing his GW would be punishing him for the rest of the table being too slow.

It gets even worse if someone enters the duel with 3.5 VPs. The guy has his GW already, and you want to remove it from him because he cannot finish the duel in time? If anything, that would only force him to transfer out to make sure the table finishes.

2) When a Methuselah earns a Game Win, it is worth 1 "Game Point" plus however many victory points the Methuselah earned as a fraction of the total available, times 0.5.

(...)

This is designed to acknowledge that not all Game Wins are the same. It fully encourages players to earn every VP possible since they all affect their top-level score in the standings. There may be cases where VP deals are possible, but players will truly be giving up something important if they make the deal. That is to say, if you have your Game Win, you still want more.

I don't think that is needed. VPs are already part of the formula. In lexicographical order instead of a direct sum with GWs, but it doesn't matter. One could rewrite the current system as a weighted sum as you did, the weight on the VPs just has to be small enough for one GW to beat any number of VPs. In a 3-round tournament, anything smaller than 1/7.5 (the maximum number of VPs one can score without a GW) would do. So we are really just talking about tuning one parameter.

The idea of dividing the VPs by the table size is interesting but I have no clue whether it is fairer than the current system or not. On the one hand, there are fewer VPs on a 4 player table, but on the other hand, players get more turns to play on a 4 player table and the table dynamics make it less prone to deadlocks, so those VPs are easier to fall one way or another. It would take some data crunching to check if it has an influence.
Last edit: 31 Jan 2013 17:17 by Boris The Blade.

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31 Jan 2013 17:38 - 31 Jan 2013 17:40 #44675 by ruiza97
Replied by ruiza97 on topic Re: Tournament Scoring
Off the top of my head, GW is awarded at 3 VPs. Then the game ends. Everyone still in the game gets .5 VP.

For example, A got B and C and has 2 VPs.
D and E could work together to prevent a GW for A and probably prevent a GW for anyone else.
Or D or E could go forward, oust E or D respectively, and also A and get a GW for being last man standing.
Or A ousts D and both A and E get .5 VP for still being alive when A ended the game when D was ousted.

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Last edit: 31 Jan 2013 17:40 by ruiza97.

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31 Jan 2013 21:53 #44686 by KevinM
Replied by KevinM on topic Re: Tournament Scoring

I strongly approve of the second suggestion you have here as its also notoriously easier to get a GW at a 4-player table rather than a 5 player table and with this system, suddenly not all GWs are created equal.

Then perhaps the 5p table GW criteria should be changed to "At least 3VPs and more than anyone else." ?

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