POLL: A Question of Balance

This poll is based on some meta discussion I had with other players.

Clearly, some clans are weaker than others. They could have better disciplines, their disciplines could have better synergy, their sect could be generally weaker, or perhaps they are fine, but they are not played as much by the general population for any number of reasons unrelated to effectiveness in VTES.

But what is the best way to help those weaker clans?

Should they get new cards which "enable" strategies? Examples of cards which tried to address deficiencies with action include Loss, The Eldest are Kholo, Hive Mind and Dogs of War.

Or should they get new cards which "disable" their weaknesses? Examples such cards include Confusion of the Eye, Eyes of the Beast, Nest of Eagles, and Yawp Court.

Thanks for your input.

In many cases, I'm not quite sure what the difference is.

You have "Loss" as a case of "enabling strategies." The primary thing loss does is allow Assamites to bleed at +2. Is that actually a case of giving them something new? They could always bleed (and at stealth) before. Those with Auspex, could already bleed at +2. Or was one of their *deficiencies* or *weaknesses* that they didn't have enough forward momentum, so giving them a + bleed card like Loss was actually addressing one of their weaknesses?

You could argue that Protean intercept cards (like Eyes of the Beast) are compensating for a "weakness" (bleed defense, not being able to block political actions) or you could say that they are "enabling strategies" by allowing people to build Protean intercept decks (with less reliance on Auspex or Animalism).

Simply the way you frame it, allows you to subtly manipulate how others perceive the question and are likely to respond.

I'm for enabling strategies. I like the diversity of the different clans. If you reduce their weaknesses you are in danger to level the differences too much and get a boring equality. I fear it is of no much importance what clan you play as youo have (more or less) the same tools for every clan to play the different archetypes. This leveling has already begun imho with the addition of cards like Mirror Walk, Sonar (+ Eyes of the Hare on pro), Instinctive Reaction, Deep Song, Old Friends, Perfect Paragon, etc. All of them give unusual abilities to disciplines latter didn't had before. Some might like this tendency as they can build intercept decks with protean and give pure obf-decks +bleed and the like. I like the difference.
An additional point: If those upgrades benefit only weak clans it'd be okay. But to give Thaumaturgy +stealth benefits a very good clan. Perfect Paragon makes pre-vote-decks even stronger. So I'd say give weak clans good cards for strategies, don't try to work on the weaknesses.

Jeff wrote:

But what is the best way to help those weaker clans?

You're not asking the right question.
The first question has to be "Should weaker clans be made stronger?"
Then, ask "Should weaker clans be made as strong as regular clans?"

My opinion is that some clans / disciplines are worse than others. So be it. "No" to the first, "Moot" to the rest.
That doesn't mean weaker clans (which is yet to be defined - TWDA isn't the only argument) don't get their chance of having new cards / new strategies. It means new cards / new strategies should not copy existing cards / existing strategies.

I don't think VTES needs balancing. We don't need to try to make all clans (or disciplines) equal. The game has a good balance now and trying to change will just shift the balance around with the same amount of different competing clans/disciplines. We won't achieve perfect balance.

What new sets should focus on is adding new interesting concepts, not giving old ones to new disciplines. I don't want another Resist Earth's Grasp, I want another Enkil Cog.

Joscha wrote:

I'm for enabling strategies. I like the diversity of the different clans. If you reduce their weaknesses you are in danger to level the differences too much and get a boring equality. I fear it is of no much importance what clan you play as youo have (more or less) the same tools for every clan to play the different archetypes. This leveling has already begun imho with the addition of cards like Mirror Walk, Sonar (+ Eyes of the Hare on pro), Instinctive Reaction, Deep Song, Old Friends, Perfect Paragon, etc. All of them give unusual abilities to disciplines latter didn't had before. Some might like this tendency as they can build intercept decks with protean and give pure obf-decks +bleed and the like. I like the difference.

I think this relates to a potentially different issue. Disciplines (and clans) should maintain their own distinctiveness and flavor. I agree with you that it is problematic that over the past couple of expansions, a lot of disciplines have been able to do a little bit of everything (Obfuscate getting S:CE, vote push, and + bleed; Presence getting stealth, pseudo-stealth, and bleed reduction; Protean getting votes and intercept; etc.). I like the idea of the MtG "color wheel," where disciplines mainly focus on what they do best, rather than everyone being able to bleed/fight/vote/stealth/intercept.

But that's a different issue than "enabling strategies."

An additional point: If those upgrades benefit only weak clans it'd be okay. But to give Thaumaturgy +stealth benefits a very good clan. Perfect Paragon makes pre-vote-decks even stronger. So I'd say give weak clans good cards for strategies, don't try to work on the weaknesses.

Thaumaturgy has gotten significantly better the past couple of sets with Mirror Walk and Rego Motus. But to be fair, they've gotten a disproportionate number of "cornercase" cards up until that point. Inscription, Serenading the Kami, and The Name Forgotten don't really see much play. Perfect Clarity, Biothaumaturgic Experiment, and Blood of Sandman have their uses, but are pretty narrow as well. The Tremere have traditionally been a good clan (the !Tremere not so much until recently, probably since Third Edition with the new crop of Group 4 vampires). But the Tremere mainly benefit from , , and a handful of key Thaumaturgy cards (Magic of the Smith, Theft of Vitae, the occasional Rutor's Hand or Walk of Flame, and now Mirror Walk and Rego Motus). In the early days, Thaumaturgy was mainly designed as a "combat discipline" and suffered many of the same problems as Celerity, Potence, and Quietus. Things have gotten much better since then, however.

In any case, I do agree that Deep Song (weenie was already strong), Eyes of Argus (weenie didn't need that), Perfect Paragon (effective stealth for Presence vote?), and No Trace (S:CE for stealth bleed?) were all unnecessary. I think Horseshes is one of the few examples of new KoT cards that is fairly well designed. Gives something new to do, makes weenie potence more interesting, results in new deck ideas, and is definitely in theme of the discipline (like Touch of Pain).