file Direct Intervention poll and discussion

×

Poll: Would VTES be helped or worsened by a banning of Direct Intervention? (was ended 0000-00-00 00:00:00)

Total number of voters: 0
Only registered users can participate to this poll
06 Jan 2012 02:52 #20048 by Haze
I used to think DI was just undercosted, when I would only see it used by wall decks that would turtle all day. hold onto the card the whole game to cancel their predator's one prayer card to get past the wall. that should definitely cost more than 1 pool for that power.

and then I started seeing the "competitive tournament" use for DI -- playing it cross-table to prevent an oust because you think you might be able to score 3 VPs on your next turn. no eagles sight needed! cheaper than Life Boon!

yeah the game can do without that kind of crap entirely. and it's probably so common because of such a cheap cost, 1 pool more than Sudden Reversal to counter 75% of the cards printed in the entire game. I rarely see Dark Influences, Power of All, or Rewind Time, so maybe those cards have a more fair cost.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Dorrinal

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
06 Jan 2012 04:32 #20059 by Pagan
I'd prefer to see DI and cards like it to go but for another reason.

To play it properly you need to wait before replacing any minion card you play to wait for DI. Since this is just not possible in a 2 hour game everyone plays assuming there will be no DI and causes the card to be played improperly, even if it is generally a minor problem.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
06 Jan 2012 04:56 #20061 by Xaddam
Removing DI would have the unfortunate effect that any block decks without bounce would be completely dead. If you can't survive Daring the Dawn as a block deck, the deck can never be competitive.

Furthermore, it's possible to create many "prefect combos" if DI wasn't in the game. DI serves as an extremely costly counter to any minion card. DI on immortal grapple to be able to play majesty is hardly a cheap way to survive combat, but at least it's a possible answer.

Recursion on DI might be extremely annoying to play against, but try playing it once and you'll see how costly it actually is to use. Choosing DI as the 13th card for Ashurs, using Anthelios, using Sargon Fragments, these are all once per turn and then the DI itself costs a MPA, the most scarce resource in the game.

I don't think VTES would be the same if you can know with 100% certainty how your turn will go. Removing DI would remove a lot of the crisis management skills required.

Adam Esbjörnsson,
Prince of Örebro

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
06 Jan 2012 05:24 #20062 by AaronC
There is a place for DI-like cards in the game because there are many minion cards that your minions cannot interact with. When I say that, I mean that there are some cards that you cannot answer adequately by playing another card, no matter how obscure. As mentioned, there is no minion card that will counter Daring the Dawn (well except allies, I guess); there is no card besides Death Seeker that will counter Concealed Weapon/Disguised Weapon. And DI doesn't even affect reaction cards like Obedience, unless you play it while your Malkavian is acting during someone else's turn.

Rather than have one card that cancels any minion card, there should be cards that cancel different types of minion cards because DI is too generally useful.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
06 Jan 2012 09:03 #20078 by Ankha
CON with all my heart.

Direct Intervention disallows you to play the game you sat down to play. The very act of playing the game is stopped by DI. No stealth, no cards, nothing helps. That's why it's horrible and never should've been made.


? I don't understand at all what you're talking about. How does DI prevent you from playing? First Tradition is a card that prevents you from playing, not DI.

The only case where DI ends the turn is when played on a Freak Drive by some kind of Una-FreakShow or Turbo-whoever deck. Otherwise, it's simply a control or "last chance" card.

Compared with other card canceller, it's more versatile but costs pool and a MPA. Approximation of Loyalty, Touch of Clarity and Vox Domini are playable and provide some advantages over DI.

Furthermore, like all card that cancels other cards, it is a "passive"/"defensive" card (except in some Enkil Cog/Madness Network decks where it can be played more proactively). Usually, such cards are less prone to be abusive. (I know this may be argued.)

Anyway,

Played on an action => the minion can take the same action again.
Played on a strike => the minion have a new strike

DI is better when played on some action modifier or reaction (usually during someone else's turn, which is quite rare and tricky) because the same card can't be played again. But even when played on a push bleed (Conditioning), you're not safe because another push bleed can be played, and paying a pool makes it less effective anyway.
Played on stealth? This is a last chance option, because another stealth card will probably be enough.

One of the most frequent scenarios is whether to play DI on the Govern (does your predator have another?) or the bleed modifier (does your predator have a Foreshadowing Destruction?). In both case, you're more dead than alive usually.

Another case is playing DI on that Concealed Weapon (but usually players pack 12 of them, so there's a chance he has another one), or on that important No Secret From the Magaji/Eternal Vigilance/Daring the Dawn/whatever key card.
Once again, nothing absolutely terrible, at least no more than being blocked.

The most frustrating use is when someone plays it on your last bleed action and cancels your push bleed that would have ousted your prey. It's really corner-case, could be done using Life Boon, and is simply table control (it could have been an Eagle Sight after all, or just Anneke blocking your oust attempt, it already happened).

If you have a look to the TWD, in 2011 there are 78 decks out of 265 that play a DI. (30%)
52 play 1 DI
23 play 2 DI
3 play 3 DI.

(and 187 don't play any DI at all)

So most decks don't play DI (Most of my decks don't have any DI in them, and I have many sitting in my collection), and when they do play DI, most of them include only 1 which can be seen as a "last chance"/"save me" card you can't reasonably count on (1 in the deck).

So, once again, how does DI prevent you from playing?
I'd love to see an example where the card would be so broken...

Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
The following user(s) said Thank You: dude_PL

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
06 Jan 2012 09:12 - 06 Jan 2012 09:13 #20080 by Izaak

Removing DI would have the unfortunate effect that any block decks without bounce would be completely dead. If you can't survive Daring the Dawn as a block deck, the deck can never be competitive.


Why not? You If your hypothetical block deck without bounce can't eat a bleed for 3, then it's probably time to back to the drawing board. In all other cases, just play an AI instead of DI.

Direct Intervention is just a way too easy and foolproof way to deal with your opponent's prayer cards.

Playing allies? Can't be arsed to defend your allies against Entrancement and the like? Pack DI's!

Playing a No Secrets Wall and scared of block fails? Pack DI's!

Playing a breed swarm and afraid of Anarchist Uprising? Pack DI's!
Last edit: 06 Jan 2012 09:13 by Izaak.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
Moderators: AnkhaKraus
Time to create page: 0.157 seconds
Powered by Kunena Forum