question-circle Pentex Subversion Poll #2 and Discussion

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Poll: Possible fixes for Pentex Subversion

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27 Jun 2012 20:57 #32558 by Squidalot
Haze,

possibly Freak Drive is the issue for Una *cough* but I don't think an incremental cost fix is particularly pleasant to do particularly without reprint options.
it is far easier to ban a card than revise a card when you can't reprint it and it'd be easier to axe Una than freak drive based on % of decks sued in.

Una was just and example of overly powered star decks - I don't think she's the only one any kind of IC with dom OBF is pretty much up plus Lucien, Cybele, Nergal etc and although many of them use Freak drive to be very powerful OBF with added dom block denial really adds to the pain especially when you add in to the mix the modern day speed increase (zillahs + villein + zillahs is far quicker than Zillahs + minion tap + zillahs etc) and of course cog for in turn irresponsible bleeding or bleeding twice a turn.

Sure star decks die to all sorts of things but if you're playing a toolbox deck or a deck with votes that rely on minion manipulation (banishment) then you're unlikely to be able to kill the deck before it kills you or oust your prey before you die.

As a player of lots of toolboxy decks I find Pentex a greater balancer to tone down decks around me that are all about 'balls on the table' and without it i'd have to shelve decks or build a large safety net (AI, Protected resources etc) so that they're actually incapable of doing anything else.

And none of that helps if the Star guy is in front of you

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27 Jun 2012 20:57 #32559 by Juggernaut1981
I don't remember hearing anyone talking about Pentex at the recent Australian National Championships. I also don't really remember it making a massive appearance at any of the recent Oceania Continental Championships. The only card with a "long shadow" around Australia has been Archon Investigation, from a Qualifier where 7 vampires were burned by Archon Investigation on a day of almost constant Dominate Powerbleed.

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28 Jun 2012 13:58 #32574 by Jeff Kuta

Ohlmann wrote: Everything you said don't change the thing that the real problem is the prevalence of big cap, and nerfing Pentex is only another way to ensure their dominance.


I think that the "real problem" is a bit more nuanced than that. I have no problem with large-cap vampire decks which *act* and do their thing. Arika, Stanislava, Lucian, The unnamed, Lutz, Dmitra. These types of decks are great to see in action. But Pentex is needed to stop star vampires like Cailean, Cesewayo or Eze with No Secrets.

Maybe pentex can be changed to be less frustrating, but in any case it should not be lowered in power - in fact, it would be better for the game not to touch it than making superstar even more super.

A lot of other options are possible, like making support vampire easier to put in play (like Grooming the Protege can already do in some case), or maybe thing more exotic like support ghoul to help big cap for action.


The fact that superstar decks large-cap can exist is *great* for the game. It provides more diversity of options and room for experimentation. Pentex is designed to shut those decks down. That is its only purpose. Mylan Horseed is a nice enabler for some large-cap decks to be sure.

It would in the same time make non-multiacting big cap easier to play (because freak drive is less necessary with 2-4 minion than with only one), and avoid the next step in the loop, which is nerfing combat (and other minion removal) to the ground because torporizing / burning a star is doable almost as soon as early pentex and even more punishing.


Combat does not need to be nerfed. Nor does it need to be highly upgraded. Interaction between minions is good, though currently it is high-risk for larger vampires. Pentex discourages interaction between minions and that is the root of its problem.

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28 Jun 2012 15:44 #32580 by Ohlmann

Jeff Kuta wrote: The fact that superstar decks large-cap can exist is *great* for the game. It provides more diversity of options and room for experimentation. Pentex is designed to shut those decks down. That is its only purpose. Mylan Horseed is a nice enabler for some large-cap decks to be sure.

But people play Pentex subversion not because big cap deck exist. They play it because big cap dominate

Jeff Kuta wrote: Combat does not need to be nerfed. Nor does it need to be highly upgraded. Interaction between minions is good, though currently it is high-risk for larger vampires. Pentex discourages interaction between minions and that is the root of its problem.

But at the root, if you don't like Pentex because it can remove your bigger minion very early, you won't like any dedicated rush deck for this very reason.

Also, I don't believe Pentex discourage minion interaction at all. It's about the same thing as torpor, without diablerie.

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28 Jun 2012 17:01 - 28 Jun 2012 17:01 #32589 by Jeff Kuta

Ohlmann wrote: But people play Pentex subversion not because big cap deck exist. They play it because big cap dominate.


You may play Pentex Subversion because you think large cap vampires dominate. But the fact is that large-cap vampires do not completely dominate the tournament metagame. What about Vignes? Weenie AUS and DEM are still strong. Shambling Hordes. Nana/ANI weenie rush. Malk94. Giovanni PowerBleed. All these mid-cap decks have won large tournaments in the past 18 months.

Jeff Kuta wrote: But at the root, if you don't like Pentex because it can remove your bigger minion very early, you won't like any dedicated rush deck for this very reason.

Also, I don't believe Pentex discourage minion interaction at all. It's about the same thing as torpor, without diablerie.


At least in combat, it is the minions interacting. I like combat. It should be better (just a touch). Pentex is a master card and therefore by definition doesn't (initially) involve minion interaction.

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Last edit: 28 Jun 2012 17:01 by Jeff Kuta.

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28 Jun 2012 19:15 - 28 Jun 2012 19:15 #32591 by Ankha

Jeff Kuta wrote: But IMO the problem with Pentex doesn't lie with breaking down a wall which has become entrenched. The problem with Pentex is that early in the game is can randomly shut a player out of the game entirely. V:TES is a social game. When each of us sits down at the table, we commit the next two hours of our lives to some (hopefully) friendly competition. When someone plays a turn 3 Pentex on your large capacity vampire, your game could be over in the next 10 minutes, even if you do get substantial help.

A single card should not have that kind of power early in the game.
<snip>

* Increase cost to 3 pool. Simple, easy to remember solution.

How does this help?

Jeff Kuta wrote: Year / TWDs Total / TWDs wPentex / %
1997-2008 / 1076 / 235 / 21.8% (prior to KoT/Ashur Tablets)
2009 / 236 / 111 / 47.0%
2010 / 231 / 130 / 56.2%
2011 / 253 / 144 / 56.9%
2012 / 89 / 62 / 69.7% (reports as of 6/26/2012)

Clearly we are experiencing some kind of trend. Large vampires got better specials and more disciplines in the last few published sets. Ergo, the advantages to playing with superstars grew as did the advantage of playing with the best superstar vampire counter card: Pentex(tm) Subversion.

The card should probably exist, but it *is* problematic, and the problem is getting worse.

If Pentex is played more often than before, couldn't it mean it is needed more often? The card is not necessarily problematic, but as you say the power of super star deck is maybe.

Jeff Kuta wrote: Pentex is a master card and therefore by definition doesn't (initially) involve minion interaction.

Huh? 95% percent of the master cards involve minions. Blood Doll. Villein. Powerbase: Montreal. Zillah's Valley. Metro Underground. The Rack. The Coven. Dreams of the Sphinx (for influence). Hunting Grounds. Disciplines...

(BTW, it's a coincidence I've quoted only Jeff, but apparently we disagree on many points, nothing personal ;))

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Last edit: 28 Jun 2012 19:15 by Ankha.

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