Pentex Subversion Poll #2 and Discussion
Poll: Possible fixes for Pentex Subversion
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Apparently, you did not understand what Jeff said : when it says that pentex does not involve minion, he means that the card is played outside the stealth/intercept game, and can neutralize a minion with no action, and no pre-requisites.
Ankha wrote:Huh? 95% percent of the master cards involve minions. Blood Doll. Villein. Powerbase: Montreal. Zillah's Valley. Metro Underground. The Rack. The Coven. Dreams of the Sphinx (for influence). Hunting Grounds. Disciplines...
Jeff Kuta wrote: Pentex is a master card and therefore by definition doesn't (initially) involve minion interaction.
there's nothing you can do to prevent pentex played on your minion, except sudden reversal/wash ( yes, with the exception of rewind time, playable by 10 vampires out of the 1360+ in the whole game.)
So the turn you play pentex, your prey is defenseless, no matter how good is defense is, if he has no minon capable of removing it (and even then, most often the harm is done).
I also want to add that in my opinion pentex is not too strong : the problem comes from recursion, and also stated by Aaron, by early shutdown that can lock a player for 3 or more turns.
Imagination is our only weapon in the war against reality -Jules de Gaultier
That's funny. I have seen Pentex do horrible damage to decks that have won games and gotten into finals.
That's because "doing horrible damage" is not the same as "making it fall apart".
Pentex makes good decks fall apart, and that is precisely why we are discussing it and why people play it so much.
Pentex is first and foremost a lunge tool. Then as secondary effect, yes it can be used to slow/shut down decks for a while. Good decks can deal with it for a while usually, and thus can eventually play on and make the finals.
Also, not all TWD's are actually good decks (in fact I'd argue that at least half of them suck balls, but let's not go there) and not all good decks become TWD.
Jeff Kuta wrote: A single card should not have that kind of power early in the game.
* Increase cost to 3 pool. Simple, easy to remember solution.
Ankha wrote: How does this help?
I believe Pentex is problematic mainly because it *can* be played early and wreck someone's game before they even have a chance to play it. While played on a minion, its effect is to almost nullify that minion from the game since it cannot act or block (this is my meaning for "doesn't involve minion interaction"). I see V:TES as a game where Methuselahs are puppet masters who can help/influence their minions interactions by providing resources or abilities, but generally speaking Methuselahs should not directly interfere (this is also a problem I have with Direct Intervention...Sudden Reversal/Wash are fine because they counter other Masters).
Since I think Pentex is a problem, part of the way to make it less of a problem is to make it cost more so Methuselahs have to weigh more carefully the choice to play Pentex. Many decks without recursion pack 2-4 Pentex. This is because they need to be able to contest it if played on their minions early, or they want to play it early because they expect to draw another later in the game. They also play multiple copies because the 2 pool cost makes it affordable to use multiple times in a single game.
If the cost were increased, then I think people would be forced to more strategically use the card. Paying 2 pool to stop my predator's turn 3 fat multi-acting vampire is almost a no brainer. And that really sucks for the game--not just the victim, but for the "spirit" of V:TES. Would it be worth paying 3 pool to do the same? Hard to say, but it certainly requires more risk analysis. Paying 3 pool to lunge for an oust, or to break a wall is still very much worth it however. So the primary benefit of Pentex is still preserved IMO.
(BTW, it's a coincidence I've quoted only Jeff, but apparently we disagree on many points, nothing personal )
Debating is good.
When you are anvil, be patient; when a hammer, strike.
Jeff Kuta wrote: If the cost were increased, then I think people would be forced to more strategically use the card. Paying 2 pool to stop my predator's turn 3 fat multi-acting vampire is almost a no brainer. And that really sucks for the game--not just the victim, but for the "spirit" of V:TES. Would it be worth paying 3 pool to do the same? Hard to say, but it certainly requires more risk analysis. Paying 3 pool to lunge for an oust, or to break a wall is still very much worth it however. So the primary benefit of Pentex is still preserved IMO.
Well, much more efficient than increasing the cost by 1 pool and hoping it will be enough would be to change to "a methuselah can play only one pentex per game". Oh, suddenly, people will stop packing 4 of it and recursing it will have 0 interest !