Fix the Malkavian Dominate Error?
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Poll: Fix Malkavian Dominate Error? (was ended 0000-00-00 00:00:00)
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26 May 2014 22:14 #62789
by rezwits
Fix the Malkavian Dominate Error? was created by rezwits
Way back in the early start of the century, 2003-2005, I always wanted to check what would happen to the discipline spread if you made one correction to VTES, DS, and AH Malkavians, by changing their Dominate to Dementation. Finally got around to starting this petition or poll for now.
Basically this is the outcome:
The only vampires who would have identical disciplines as any other vampire would be:
(6) Ozmo <-> (5) General Perfidio Dios
Note: Group 1 Group 3 (anti) btw totally different cap and abilities
separate groups perfectly, so no problem there
(4) Roland Bishop <-> (4) Claven <-> (4) Adelaide Davis <-> (4) Beauregard Krueller
Note: Group1 Group 2 (anti) Group 3 Group 4
separate groups perfectly, so no problem there
(2) Ohanna <-> (2) Boy Toy <-> (2) Cassandra Langely, The Waif
Note Group 2 Group 2 (anti) Group 4
separate groups also, so no problem there
Let’s fix the Malkavian Dominate Error
Basically,
Any VTES (set 1), Dark Sovereigns or Ancient Hearts, Malkavian with Dominate,
changes it to Dementation.
And that’s all completely fixed the clan
True all of the fun old things you could do with mainly the Group 1 Malks can’t be done anymore, but it’s really not that big of a deal, and then you get new ideas and some of those old decks you may have wanted to put together but didn't because of that stupid discipline problem.
I have heard stories of how, it was made this way for a reason, and that they didn't want to add the additional discipline in the beginning, but who cares really. This has just always bugged the hell out of me, because every other clan is perfectly laid out spread wise, and they have so many other errata I don't what the big problem would be at this point.
I know this is crazy…
Basically this is the outcome:
The only vampires who would have identical disciplines as any other vampire would be:
(6) Ozmo <-> (5) General Perfidio Dios
Note: Group 1 Group 3 (anti) btw totally different cap and abilities
separate groups perfectly, so no problem there
(4) Roland Bishop <-> (4) Claven <-> (4) Adelaide Davis <-> (4) Beauregard Krueller
Note: Group1 Group 2 (anti) Group 3 Group 4
separate groups perfectly, so no problem there
(2) Ohanna <-> (2) Boy Toy <-> (2) Cassandra Langely, The Waif
Note Group 2 Group 2 (anti) Group 4
separate groups also, so no problem there
Let’s fix the Malkavian Dominate Error
Basically,
Any VTES (set 1), Dark Sovereigns or Ancient Hearts, Malkavian with Dominate,
changes it to Dementation.
And that’s all completely fixed the clan
True all of the fun old things you could do with mainly the Group 1 Malks can’t be done anymore, but it’s really not that big of a deal, and then you get new ideas and some of those old decks you may have wanted to put together but didn't because of that stupid discipline problem.
I have heard stories of how, it was made this way for a reason, and that they didn't want to add the additional discipline in the beginning, but who cares really. This has just always bugged the hell out of me, because every other clan is perfectly laid out spread wise, and they have so many other errata I don't what the big problem would be at this point.
I know this is crazy…
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27 May 2014 04:59 #62790
by Ankha
Replied by Ankha on topic Re: Fix the Malkavian Dominate Error?
I have no problem whatsoever with the DOM discipline in gr1 Malkavian. Changing it to DEM would not make them more interesting, but on the contrary would remove a good alternative to DEM Malkavians.
If you have a "discipline problem", just play another group. As you said, there are many comparable vampires in the other groups where DOM have been changed for DEM.
There's nothing to fix. You seem more to have a philosophical issue than a real game problem.
If you have a "discipline problem", just play another group. As you said, there are many comparable vampires in the other groups where DOM have been changed for DEM.
There's nothing to fix. You seem more to have a philosophical issue than a real game problem.
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27 May 2014 05:01 #62791
by jamesatzephyr
The reason was that Auspex, Dominate, Obfuscate were the clan disciplines for the Camarilla Malkavians, when V:TES was created in 1994. In Second Edition Vampire: The Masquerade (published 1992), that's what the disciplines were. Later on, things changed, and the Dominate/Dementation split between the Malkavians and the Malkavian antitribu was 'resolved' with the Great Prank.
See also: group one and two Gangrel are Camarilla, but later Gangrel are mostly Independent, reflecting a WoD change.
Replied by jamesatzephyr on topic Re: Fix the Malkavian Dominate Error?
I have heard stories of how, it was made this way for a reason,
The reason was that Auspex, Dominate, Obfuscate were the clan disciplines for the Camarilla Malkavians, when V:TES was created in 1994. In Second Edition Vampire: The Masquerade (published 1992), that's what the disciplines were. Later on, things changed, and the Dominate/Dementation split between the Malkavians and the Malkavian antitribu was 'resolved' with the Great Prank.
See also: group one and two Gangrel are Camarilla, but later Gangrel are mostly Independent, reflecting a WoD change.
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27 May 2014 05:15 - 27 May 2014 06:28 #62792
by rezwits
So yeah somewhat 95% the case, almost strictly purity ...
But I have had designs where I wanted to put Group 2's with Group 3's and I had to have my library fitted with DOM cards for half the vampires and DEM cards for the other half, which in all honesty was lame and just felt pathetic and weak, and never played the combined groups in any decks...
Replied by rezwits on topic Re: Fix the Malkavian Dominate Error?
There's nothing to fix. You seem more to have a philosophical issue than a real game problem.
So yeah somewhat 95% the case, almost strictly purity ...
But I have had designs where I wanted to put Group 2's with Group 3's and I had to have my library fitted with DOM cards for half the vampires and DEM cards for the other half, which in all honesty was lame and just felt pathetic and weak, and never played the combined groups in any decks...
Last edit: 27 May 2014 06:28 by rezwits. Reason: groups
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27 May 2014 05:47 #62793
by Timo
I guess you mean group 2 and 3 (which is where the difference is made beetwen DOM and DEM malk.
But I would say : what the problem ?
Nohing say you HAVE to play vampires which don't go well together just because they are of the same clan.
A DEM/DOM deck is a bad idea so chose your crypt accordingly with DEM or DOM.
And as it have been said, DOM malk represent "old" malkavian...
Replied by Timo on topic Re: Fix the Malkavian Dominate Error?
There's nothing to fix. You seem more to have a philosophical issue than a real game problem.
So yeah somewhat 95% the case, almost strictly purity ...
But I have had designs where I wanted to put Group 2's with Group 1's and I had to have my library fitted with DOM cards for half the vampires and DEM cards for the other half, which in all honesty was lame and just felt pathetic and weak, and never played the combined groups in any decks...
I guess you mean group 2 and 3 (which is where the difference is made beetwen DOM and DEM malk.
But I would say : what the problem ?
Nohing say you HAVE to play vampires which don't go well together just because they are of the same clan.
A DEM/DOM deck is a bad idea so chose your crypt accordingly with DEM or DOM.
And as it have been said, DOM malk represent "old" malkavian...
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27 May 2014 06:05 #62794
by alek
Replied by alek on topic Re: Fix the Malkavian Dominate Error?
100% agreed with Ankha
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27 May 2014 06:42 #62796
by rezwits
Replied by rezwits on topic Clan Decks with Clan Disciplines
Yeah it's almost just for the purity aspect, but in addition I find I want to create malk decks where I can freely rotate vampires as I see fit, say if I choose to play "the same deck" with Group 1 and 2 the dom cards are in there. If I just want to freely play group 2 and 3 or even 4 and 5, I have to swap out some dom cards and put in the dem cards, bummer for me I guess. It's just flexibility.
Example, You can have a brujah deck, and then as you see fit you can pick any brujah from some groups and play the deck. If you want to go further down the groups line you can grab those vampires and play them using the "same deck" cause they have what is called "Clan Disciplines"
So, in essence most clans have this beauty of having a "Clan Deck" based on their Clan disciplines, and you can pick any vampires (as long as they are in consecutive groups) and just play the deck.
Do you kinda see what I am saying here? With malkavians you have the Group 1 Malk decks that can't be played with further down the line groups. i.e. the group 1 malk decks are only used by those first gen vamps. Unless you want to rotate cards out etc etc blah blah,
Lame for Malkavians. I just think things would be pleasant if you could have a Malkavian Clan Deck (themed perhaps) and freely pick whatever groups you want to play with BUT YOU CAN'T without having to have 2 decks built or swap cards in and out, no other clan has this problem!
Lame
Example, You can have a brujah deck, and then as you see fit you can pick any brujah from some groups and play the deck. If you want to go further down the groups line you can grab those vampires and play them using the "same deck" cause they have what is called "Clan Disciplines"
So, in essence most clans have this beauty of having a "Clan Deck" based on their Clan disciplines, and you can pick any vampires (as long as they are in consecutive groups) and just play the deck.
Do you kinda see what I am saying here? With malkavians you have the Group 1 Malk decks that can't be played with further down the line groups. i.e. the group 1 malk decks are only used by those first gen vamps. Unless you want to rotate cards out etc etc blah blah,
Lame for Malkavians. I just think things would be pleasant if you could have a Malkavian Clan Deck (themed perhaps) and freely pick whatever groups you want to play with BUT YOU CAN'T without having to have 2 decks built or swap cards in and out, no other clan has this problem!
Lame
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27 May 2014 07:25 #62797
by Ankha
You can't just swap crypts and keep the same deck, otherwise V:TES would be a very poor game, and grouping would be nonsensical too.
Plus what you say is wrong for many clans: EuroBrujah don't have presence, gr. 4-5 Ventrue have more Auspex than their gr2-3 counterpart, gr 3+ gangrel can't play Camarilla cards, gr1-4 Baali don't have titles (except Maureen)...
Replied by Ankha on topic Re: Clan Decks with Clan Disciplines
This is nonsense. You have to adapt to the game, not the reverse.Yeah it's almost just for the purity aspect, but in addition I find I want to create malk decks where I can freely rotate vampires as I see fit, say if I choose to play "the same deck" with Group 1 and 2 the dom cards are in there. If I just want to freely play group 2 and 3 or even 4 and 5, I have to swap out some dom cards and put in the dem cards, bummer for me I guess. It's just flexibility.
You can't just swap crypts and keep the same deck, otherwise V:TES would be a very poor game, and grouping would be nonsensical too.
Plus what you say is wrong for many clans: EuroBrujah don't have presence, gr. 4-5 Ventrue have more Auspex than their gr2-3 counterpart, gr 3+ gangrel can't play Camarilla cards, gr1-4 Baali don't have titles (except Maureen)...
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27 May 2014 07:27 #62798
by Timo
Replied by Timo on topic Re: Clan Decks with Clan Disciplines
I srongly disagree on your assumption that you can swap crypt between decks of the same clan.
For example, if you play a brujah prince deck in group 1-2 you will play with cards and no cards.
And if you want to swap to playing a brujah prince deck in group 4-5 you will play with cards and because dmitra is so good, you will want to add some and/or .
On the same level, if you play Follower of Set, you will add or not some cards accordingly with your crypt choice.
There is something called "clan disciplines" but it is mostly some guidelines for card designers.
For example, if you play a brujah prince deck in group 1-2 you will play with cards and no cards.
And if you want to swap to playing a brujah prince deck in group 4-5 you will play with cards and because dmitra is so good, you will want to add some and/or .
On the same level, if you play Follower of Set, you will add or not some cards accordingly with your crypt choice.
There is something called "clan disciplines" but it is mostly some guidelines for card designers.
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27 May 2014 07:31 - 27 May 2014 07:32 #62799
by jamesatzephyr
Erm, not really.
Good players craft the library and crypt for reasonable synergy. A good EuroBrujah deck makes use of the proliferation of midbie titles and offclan Dominate. Ventrue Law Firm (group 1-2) plays very differently to Obfuscate Ventrue (group 2 centred). A Hermana Blood Brothers deck plays quite differently from a Group 2 Blood Brothers deck, even though they have the same clan disciplines. A crypt selection for any clan that can access a reasonable amount of off-clan Dominate or Fortitude will play quite differently from a crypt selection that can't - Fortitude provides multi-acting capability, and Dominate provides Deflection, which can significantly alter your attitude to pool gain, defence and ousting. Group 1-2 Malkavians can put together a really quite terrifying (if somewhat fragile) Madness Network Rotschreck deck, due in part to a combination of Protean (easy agg damage, Homunculus) and titles (defence), not easily replicated elsewhere.
That's really missing the point of having different things available to you in a CCG.
If Group 1 Malkavians had been designed originally with Dementation, you would generally expect later groupings to have mixed things up a bit. This is the group pairing that focuses a bit more on Dementation with titles, this group pair has a smattering of more wall-y vampires, this group pair has less Obfuscate but a bit more Obtenebration etc.
Replied by jamesatzephyr on topic Re: Clan Decks with Clan Disciplines
Example, You can have a brujah deck, and then as you see fit you can pick any brujah from some groups and play the deck.
Erm, not really.
Good players craft the library and crypt for reasonable synergy. A good EuroBrujah deck makes use of the proliferation of midbie titles and offclan Dominate. Ventrue Law Firm (group 1-2) plays very differently to Obfuscate Ventrue (group 2 centred). A Hermana Blood Brothers deck plays quite differently from a Group 2 Blood Brothers deck, even though they have the same clan disciplines. A crypt selection for any clan that can access a reasonable amount of off-clan Dominate or Fortitude will play quite differently from a crypt selection that can't - Fortitude provides multi-acting capability, and Dominate provides Deflection, which can significantly alter your attitude to pool gain, defence and ousting. Group 1-2 Malkavians can put together a really quite terrifying (if somewhat fragile) Madness Network Rotschreck deck, due in part to a combination of Protean (easy agg damage, Homunculus) and titles (defence), not easily replicated elsewhere.
If you want to go further down the groups line you can grab those vampires and play them using the "same deck" cause they have what is called "Clan Disciplines"
That's really missing the point of having different things available to you in a CCG.
If Group 1 Malkavians had been designed originally with Dementation, you would generally expect later groupings to have mixed things up a bit. This is the group pairing that focuses a bit more on Dementation with titles, this group pair has a smattering of more wall-y vampires, this group pair has less Obfuscate but a bit more Obtenebration etc.
Last edit: 27 May 2014 07:32 by jamesatzephyr.
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