file Poll: Merge Antitribbu into base Clans?

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Poll: Should Antitribbu become one with base clans?

No! Too much to do.
31 73.8%
Yes! But not Salubri, too much there
2 4.8%
Yes, and Salubri, oh well
9 21.4%
Other, and explain in comments.
No votes 0%
Total number of voters: 42 ( Malachy, Oshi, omnevolent, Sydnelson, Klaital ) See more
Only registered users can participate to this poll
01 Dec 2018 16:21 #92180 by ReverendRevolver
Please vote after reading all the information.
With reprints on the horizon and V5 being big for us (Paradox is how we have seen print, BC will be using them as a tie in because it makes too much sense to not do) this is the time to decide:
Do we still need Antitribbu clans Separate?

V5:
Anarch and cam take the stage, Sabbat is a few boogie men or away at the crusades. Sabbat aren't that relevant currently.

With sect lines being a thing, emphasis on them makes more sense than pretending a barely relevant sect splits a clan. It would be like making new clans for laibon HoS, !salubri, Assamites, and Lasombra. Not really needed for vtes.


Moving several Sabbat esque things to Anarch culture has happened, it makes sense that we start looking at that for vtes; not Sabbat cards, but it's an easy fit for Antitribbu clan cards, they have a very Similar to anarch feel about them anyway.

Timing:
Doing something big now before we roll out hard on new player friendly stuff is key. 7 less nonsense symbols to remember is handy, and works more logically.
Reprints will be worded right, symboled right.
It allows abolishing default sect as well, which is important for us now.

The upcoming Sabbat starters would be the first new templated or last old ones, depending on release.

While I realize some of my opinions (like reassigning independent to less vagueness per vamp, like Anarchby V5 standard or Ministry, etc) is much work with little payoff, THIS is probably the right move long term.

Many new players will be in favor. I ask those who've been at this as long as me or longer to take an unbiased look at where we were, where we are, and if this happening will help where we will be.


Merging the antitribbu clans
The numbers (I the parenthetical is base clan, labeled cam because non-antitribbu is double negative kinda)
Crypt
Brujah: 43 (73cam)=116
Gangrel:58(80cam)=138
Nos: 43(66cam)109
Malk:43(67)=110
Salubri:19(more on this later)(10cam)=29
Torrie:43(71cam)=114
Tremere:43(72cam)=115
Ventrue:43(74cam)=117

!Salubri: while a small case can be made that gangrel and ventrue antitribbu are a distinct bloodline with different disciplines, the Salubri are Scarce, and while Obeah :obe: won't break the game with Sanguine Instruction, base salubri become unplayable with !salubri if it costs you pool to flip Nahum when you have 4 !salubri out. Yes, Death Seeker Matthias looks cool, but at a price. And since !Salubri have both Laibon and Sabbat, wording would get messy. Also, V5 hasn't done anything with either yet.
So, its cleaner to leave this bloodline as the last “antitribbu” for mechanic, fluff, and balance reasons.

Library:

-Hunting grounds-
Its not game breaking to have 2 per clan.

-paths-
Are thematically Sabbat alternatives to humanity. So, make em sabbat.

Lock to add pool to uncontrolled dude-
These are currently either cam or Sabbat. Basically, the other side getting it doesn't hurt, because the more wall-inclined clans had it already, except maybe Nos.
Key:
Blank means change symbol and let whole clan have it.() means the other thing listed or possibly whole clan.
*means sabbat only
**means anarch only
*/** means Sabbat and anarch can use. Often could be non cam, but really Anarch or Sabbat is the aim.

Bru
Blood brother Ambush*/^(move out of clan?)
Bruisers
Dogs of war**
Gang territory
Spoils of war*/**
Sword judgement *
Unexpected coalition*/**
Vendetta */**
Waste management op*/**
~debate, Carthage remembered and new Carthage require testing with combos with Sabbat titles(Brenner, hektor, dark selena) and new Carthage may need non-sabbat.
In fact, just make it that. Thematically, V5 is moving “promethean” Brujah toward anarch leaning.


Gangrel
Bay and howl
BsBuddy
City gangrel connections */**
Follow the alpha
Gangrel conspiracy**
Leathery hide */**(noncam?)
Marked territory
Path of the feral heart *
Satyr *or */**
Talons of the dead */**or *
Twisted forest**
~revel with city gangrel will be playable ish, but that's not bad. 2 problems: 2 stealth locations, so limit one to anarch. The other isn't huge but should be tested; bay and howl+ecoterrorists+thing+gather….you could theoretically get stuff out fast. But, gangrel suck, Slava, Enkidu, and Matusuntha are the fattest good ones and dont play as well in decks where 3 weenies come out to bring them out. So its probably ok. And let's them not be a bleed sink with no pool gain as often.


Malk
Cracking the wall()or*/**
Marionette*/**
Escaped mental patient*/**
Malkavian gam
Symbols tongue*/**
Reality mirror
Walk through Arcadia
~ I'm a huge malk fan, but Madness network with Artemis, Apache Jones, Rudulfo, Louhi, Marge Khan, imogen, Theron, and lily needs tested. Frankly, since :for: or :for: :cel: requires success to untap, it's less a problem than the :pro: crowd. But 2 10caps and an 8 cap with no :pre: to refill on votes and villein nerf is probably safe.
Get ready for lots of stupid rock paper scissors and suck from new players with stealthbleed...

Nos
Courier
Dirty little secrets */**
Gang tactics */**
Information network
Inside dirt */**
Nos kingdom
Steam tunnels
Using advantage
Vermin channel ()or*/**
~none. Maybe power creep with so much available and Warsaw, or vermin channel Alexandria combo.

Salubri
Black beast*
Blade bellona
Blessing of the name
Blooding by the code
Brother in arms
Code of samuel
Death seeker
Path*
Trackers mark
Righteous aura
~sight beyond sight? I don't know, this one isn't great to merge….



Torrie
Art of pain */**
Art of love ()or*/**
Art scam */**
Eccentric billionaire */**
Foundation exhibit *or*/**
Goth Band */**
Palla grande*
Patronage*/**
~aching beauty, TGB, and possibly KSGames need non-sabbat. You dont need palla grande and more in a cheesy strong deck.


Tremere
Gargoyle slave*
Hexapod */**
Infernal pact */**
Nephundi*
Recurve homeland */**
Spirit summon chamber*/**
Ruins ceoris */**
Succubus*/**
~the following cards need “non-sabbat”:
Ankara citadel, ponticulous, convocation, wasserschloss artif ,(maybe more for thematic reasons)


Ventrue
Demonstration */**
Framing grudge */**
Innocent bystander */**
Kindred manipulation */**
Loyalist *
Political antagonist */**
Recruiting party */**/non cam targets?
Investment (non cam)
~
Ephor and island yairos may see play on new decks. Nothing huge.

So, testing will be needed on several. Thoughts?
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01 Dec 2018 19:10 - 01 Dec 2018 20:51 #92182 by LivesByProxy
Yes, I would like to see this, they never should have been split in the first place, but IDK how such a thing can be implemented... Do you change the Gangrel / !Gangrel clan symbol to represent this unity? (Basically, introduce a third symbol for Gangrel?) You say you want to remove symbols and just have Sect identifier in the text box, but won't this still be confusing for new players seeing old cards? They will see Gangrel :gang: symbol and then see !Gangrel !gang! having a different symbol, but then the latter symbol no longer means anything, but its still in the card pool? It reminds me of the old pool cost icon situation which was too similar to the blood cost icon, creating confusion, so a new icon was introduced (the skull diamond) but the old cards still exist and require remembering and raise questions, etc.

That's always the argument against changes to VTES, right? That the game permits using all these old cards that have outdated graphics, formatting, and terminology, and hence creates confusion among new players who are presumably playing with new cards.

(As an aside, !Gangrel getting Rewilding would be sick.)

:gang: :CEL: :FOR: :PRO: :cap6: Gangrel. Noddist. Camarilla. Once each turn, LivesByProxy may burn 1 blood to lose Protean :PRO: until the end of the turn and gain your choice of superior Auspex :AUS:, Obfuscate :OBF:, or Potence :POT: for the current action.
Last edit: 01 Dec 2018 20:51 by LivesByProxy. Reason: spelling
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01 Dec 2018 21:07 #92187 by Cat_in_Exile
Sabbat may not be relevant in the current V5 meta, but that's unlikely to be the case at some later date. They've already laid some of the groundwork by some questioning the looming threat of their eventual return, gorged on ancient vitae.
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01 Dec 2018 23:18 #92189 by self biased

LivesByProxy wrote: Basically, introduce a third symbol for Gangrel?


they're the same image, just inverted (and with the big honking anti-tribu shield behind it). My very first deck I put together, I literally did not know the difference between regular and anti-tribu and put a bunch of "wrong" master cards in my deck. I don't think it'll be that much of a stretch to be honest.

Re: Salubri "scarce" should get an update. If all clans can have scarce vampires it opens up design space (i've mentioned it before). So effectively, Salubri with Valeren are common, and those with Obeah aren't.

oh, and the Sabbat Ventrue tend to have Auspex, instead of Presence, making them from the Ventrue Warrior bloodline. While cards may have been designed around what vampires could use them (and vice versa) there's nothing actually hard-coded in V:tes' rules about in-clan disciplines.

to sum up: I've been a vocal supporter for streamlining this aspect of the game for years, and would very much like to see this happen.

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02 Dec 2018 14:55 #92194 by jamesatzephyr

ReverendRevolver wrote: Key:
Blank means change symbol and let whole clan have it.() means the other thing listed or possibly whole clan.
*means sabbat only
**means anarch only
*/** means Sabbat and anarch can use. Often could be non cam, but really Anarch or Sabbat is the aim.


This makes life a nightmare for remembering what does what. If you know that on old cards (that don't say (C) Black Chantry or whatever) that "Toreador" means "Camarilla Toreador" and "Toreador Antitribu" means "Sabbat Toreador", that's relatively easy to implement. That's similar to how grouping was introduced - on a card without a group number, no set symbol meant "group 1", and a set symbol meant "group 2". This caused some issues - notably that putting any Indie vampires into group 3 was somewhat annoying, because group 2 was mostly full, whereas the Camarilla vampires were split over group 1 and 2, and Sabbat War didn't dump a whole load of new Sabbat vampires in the same way that Final Nights (prior to grouping) did for the Indies. But to offset these design glitches, it made the playability of the grouping rule much easier to explain and check.




On a separate point, if you are planning to go through and adjust every card text that says a clan name, you also need to go through vampires who have clan-related specials e.g. Alexandra (does she now untap Toreador antitribu/Sabbat Toreador too?), does Lord Ashton work for any Gangrel including former Antitribu, does Lisandro Giovanni impersonating a Ventrue antitribu now allow him to impersonate a Ventrue (giving e.g. access to Ventrue HQ, which cares not at all for the sect of the Ventrue)?

Plus you may also want to look at hosers. One or two hosers are actually just about usable in the right metagame, because they're extremely powerful. Does Malkavian Dementia allow you to steal a !Malk/Sabbat Malk - if so, that's now hitting a much larger pool of vampires than before.

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02 Dec 2018 21:21 #92199 by Rowdy
Change is inevitable they say. Everything changes. We have V.5 of VtM now. We have 5.0 of D&D as well.People still play D&D Advanced and 3.5 or 2E or...

Just because the pnp version of the game is changing, why must we change VTES even more? I understand that VTES & WW/the rest work hand in hand, but if you go and change everything, the game will no longer be the game we have all come to love & have played these many years. By going in that direction, I see nothing but MtG way of things where one plays whatever the current season is. It will bring even more confusion to any potential new players.

let the changes be slow in progress with the combination of disciplines first and then... maybe.. look at other changes. With the talk of combination of disciplines already pisses me off. I feel that VTES should stick as is with discipline powers being separate with only a few of the new vampire powers and that goes with Sabbat. After all, I, like many of you have spent a small fortune on cards over the years to see them gain dust like old editions of MtG.

I don't like change & V.5 brings too much. Just asking we slow it down to see how things go with V.5 & VTES before we talk about changing more.

~ Rowdy

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