file Eternal Mask + Khobar Towers

30 Oct 2019 23:24 - 30 Oct 2019 23:58 #97631 by jamesatzephyr

Part 1:

My last turn:
- 1 - Vampire A played superior Eternal Mask to bring Vampire B into play.
-. 2 - Vampire B got back to Asheap and Vampire A kept the mask.
- 3 - Vampire C played superior Eternal Mask to bring back Vampire B into the ready region.

My prey unlock:
- 1 - Can I burn both Eternal Mask?

Yes.

[...]


I don't get this answer. According to LSJ's ruling you have to burn both the Eternal Mask and the returned vampire simultaneously. Does this mean you burn both Eternal Masks (that have brought back the same vampire) at the same time with that vampire? I'd expect you burn 1 Eternal Mask with the vampire, and after that you can't burn the second one, since the vampire is not in play anymore.


I also don't understand this.

A retrieves B with Eternal Mask.
B burns again somehow and goes back to the ash heap.
C retrieves B with Eternal Mask.

When B hit the ash heap, B was wiped clean of all effects that had previously targeted B.

[LSJ 20040726]

The ash heap, library, and crypt all "wash" the cards clean (except
for a memory of how they got there, in the case of the ash heap and
certain retrieval mechanisms).


So as far as A is concerned, the B that has been retrieved by C is not the chosen vampire for A's Eternal Mask.

That old B and new B are not treated by the game as being the same vampire is fairly fundamental to, amongst other things, some recycling Turbo decks that take non-repeatable actions with returned vampires. (Turbo-Baron style decks.)
Last edit: 30 Oct 2019 23:58 by jamesatzephyr.
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31 Oct 2019 06:58 #97633 by Grzybas
The question is , can you burn Eternal Mask if the vampire you moved to your ready region was burned. I think you can, therefore as you said because its not the same vampire if you move it again with another Eternal Mask you can burn the first mask for free and the second one with burning mask and vampire at the same time.

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31 Oct 2019 08:54 #97634 by jamesatzephyr

The question is , can you burn Eternal Mask if the vampire you moved to your ready region was burned.


No. You have to burn Eternal Mask and the chosen vampire. If the chosen vampire isn't there, you don't have a legal target for the burn effect.

[LSJ 20090725]

> Also, If Vampire A targets a burned Vampire B with The Eternal Mask,
> and Vampire B is banished and moved to the uncontrolled region, would
> one be able to voluntarily burn The Eternal Mask without burning
> Vampire B, and then move Vampire B into the ready region with no
> penalty?

No. The effect to burn the Eternal Mask given in Eternal Mask's card text
targets the chosen vampire as well. It cannot be used if that target isn't in
the game.


See also Pascal's post up-thread, although the link to Yahoo Groups doesn't work.

I think you can, therefore as you said because its not the same vampire if you move it again with another Eternal Mask you can burn the first mask for free


Nope. To use Eternal Mask's burn text, you have to burn both cards.

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31 Oct 2019 09:26 #97635 by Grzybas
hmm then the wording would make much more sense if it was something like "you can burn the chosen vampire to burn this card during any unlock phase"

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31 Oct 2019 10:08 #97642 by Ankha
Replied by Ankha on topic Eternal Mask + Khobar Towers

Part 1:

My last turn:
- 1 - Vampire A played superior Eternal Mask to bring Vampire B into play.
-. 2 - Vampire B got back to Asheap and Vampire A kept the mask.
- 3 - Vampire C played superior Eternal Mask to bring back Vampire B into the ready region.

My prey unlock:
- 1 - Can I burn both Eternal Mask?

Yes.

[...]


I don't get this answer. According to LSJ's ruling you have to burn both the Eternal Mask and the returned vampire simultaneously. Does this mean you burn both Eternal Masks (that have brought back the same vampire) at the same time with that vampire? I'd expect you burn 1 Eternal Mask with the vampire, and after that you can't burn the second one, since the vampire is not in play anymore.


My mistake. I got mixed up with the old ruling about Bauble (pre-RTR 2008) that worked differently. Anyway, they both work the same way today: both the EM and the vampire that was brought back with it must be in play in order to burn both of them. You can't burn the EM if that vampire is no longer in play.

So:

- 1 - Vampire A played superior Eternal Mask to bring Vampire B into play.
-. 2 - Vampire B got back to Asheap and Vampire A kept the mask.
- 3 - Vampire C played superior Eternal Mask to bring back Vampire B into the ready region.

My prey unlock:
- 1 - Can I burn both Eternal Mask?

No. You cannot burn the EM A played because B isn't in play anymore.
Nevertheless, you can burn the EM C played because B' is in play.

B and B' are considered to be different, even though it's the same card. The trip through the ash heap "cleans" any previous effect on that vampire or reference to that vampire. For instance, if B had lost his title previously (before burning), B' has his title when brung back in play by C.

- 2 - If not (which I don't understand why), can I choose to burn any one of the two of them or is there any restrictions I cannot see there?

You can burn only the EM played by C.

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Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
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31 Oct 2019 10:17 #97643 by Ankha
Replied by Ankha on topic Eternal Mask + Khobar Towers

hmm then the wording would make much more sense if it was something like "you can burn the chosen vampire to burn this card during any unlock phase"

There's no order to burn both cards; "you can burn this card to burn the chosen vampire..." would be as valid as your suggestion.
If an effect has mandatory targets, they must all be present in order to announce the effect.

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