Re: New Psyche and Telepathic Tracking

Doesn't the ruling above talk about playing Psyche! after the Illusions of the Kindred ends combat rather than after the combat with the illusion?

henrik wrote:

Doesn't the ruling above talk about playing Psyche! after the Illusions of the Kindred ends combat rather than after the combat with the illusion?

Oh, sorry.
For such things (queuing combats) we have a ruling in the All Rulings page:

An effect which would cause (a new) combat cannot be used if there is already a pending combat queued. [RTR 20020501]

henrik wrote:

Doesn't the ruling above talk about playing Psyche! after the Illusions of the Kindred ends combat rather than after the combat with the illusion?

No, that ruling is talking about the words "Combat ends." on Illusions of the Kindred - the first words of the [chi] level. Essentially, people wanted to know "Can I interrupt Illusions of the Kindred with Psyche!?"

The ruling was that it couldn't fit in the gap, but that's quite elderly and pre-dates the ruling on Rotschreck et al.

For Psyche!, however, the answer is now no. Illusions of the Kindred queues a combat, as does Psyche! (including old Psyche!). You can only queue one combat at once.

You can play Illusions of the Kindred, have someone play Telepathic Tracking (which doesn't queue a combat), and lose the rest of the effect of IotK, however. [LSJ 20090908]

LSJ wrote:

TT interrupts IotK's effect, and, since TT extends combat, the rest of IotK's
effect is lost.

jamesatzephyr wrote:

henrik wrote:

Doesn't the ruling above talk about playing Psyche! after the Illusions of the Kindred ends combat rather than after the combat with the illusion?

No, that ruling is talking about the words "Combat ends." on Illusions of the Kindred - the first words of the [chi] level. Essentially, people wanted to know "Can I interrupt Illusions of the Kindred with Psyche!?"

Yeah, that's what I meant.

When I think about it, it does seem a bit weird that Psyche! can interrupt some things (Rotschrek's tapping and torpor sending) but not others (IotK's queued up combat) even though the wording seems identical (Combat ends. Something else happens.)

I know the rulings state that you can't queue more than one combats, but I'm not sure why combats are considered to be queued up when other effects (like Rotschreck's tapping and torpor sending) aren't. Having combats work in one way and other effects work in another way feels a bit counterintuitive to me, even if I'm not really having any problems with it since I know the rulings. I'm thinking it would be more consistent to have Psyche! interrupt (or just delay, but that would possibly get weird with combats) any or no effects (including combats).

henrik wrote:

When I think about it, it does seem a bit weird that Psyche! can interrupt some things (Rotschrek's tapping and torpor sending) but not others (IotK's queued up combat) even though the wording seems identical (Combat ends. Something else happens.)

The point is that the "something else" is different, and there's a prohibition on the "something else".

henrik wrote:

I know the rulings state that you can't queue more than one combats, but I'm not sure why combats are considered to be queued up when other effects (like Rotschreck's tapping and torpor sending) aren't.

I'm not sure why you think they're not queued up, or why it's relevant.

The point is that there's an explicit ruling on queuing multiple combats at once. There isn't a ruling prevent you from queuing up other things.

henrik wrote:

I'm thinking it would be more consistent to have Psyche! interrupt (or just delay, but that would possibly get weird with combats) any or no effects (including combats).

It's the "getting weird with combats" part that the ruling on queuing combats was intended to prevent.

jamesatzephyr wrote:

henrik wrote:

I know the rulings state that you can't queue more than one combats, but I'm not sure why combats are considered to be queued up when other effects (like Rotschreck's tapping and torpor sending) aren't.

I'm not sure why you think they're not queued up, or why it's relevant.

The point is that there's an explicit ruling on queuing multiple combats at once. There isn't a ruling prevent you from queuing up other things.

Yeah, as I said I know that the rulings exist and I understand how Psyche! works due to the rulings. I'm just unsure about why the rulings were made that way (or why they stayed that way). Why is the "something other than combat" different? And the answer I'm looking for isn't "because the rulings say so", I'm in the clear with that. I'm more interested in the reasoning behind the rulings.
I think it would be easier to just have Psyche! interrupt IotK (and other combat queueing effects) entirely after the combat ends. This is the way it works with Rotschreck.

For some reason, a new combat is considered to be queued up and uninterruptable by cards like Psyche! while other things (sending to torpor, tapping, dealing damage) are considered interruptable effects which are just ignored after Psyche! (and similar) are played. And yes, the reason is probably that queued up combats can get messy and confusing, but why not have it the other way around?

jamesatzephyr wrote:

henrik wrote:

I'm thinking it would be more consistent to have Psyche! interrupt (or just delay, but that would possibly get weird with combats) any or no effects (including combats).

It's the "getting weird with combats" part that the ruling on queuing combats was intended to prevent.

Sure. But why not have the queued up combat taken away with no effect (like the "vampire is tapped and sent to torpor" part on Rotschreck)? Wouldn't that be a more consistent way to handle cards like Psyche!?

I think the wordings on the cards texts are identical, the only difference is the actual effects happening after combat ends. I don't any reason why Psyche! shouldn't be able to interrupt IotK and disregard the text after "Combat ends.", just like it with Rotschreck.
This is what I meant in my last post when I wrote that only combats are considered "queued up". Why would playing Pscyhe! after IotK imply that the IotK combat should happen after the Psyche! combat, when the tapping and torporing of Rotschreck doesn't?

Rotschrek wrote:

Combat ends. This vampire is tapped and sent to torpor.

Illusions wrote:

Combat ends. Move the bottom card of your crypt to your ready region. He or she does not contest any other minions or titles in play. The vampire has an amount of blood equal to half of his or her capacity (round down). Combat begins between the vampire and the opposing minion.

I'm not trying to be a pain here, I just want to understand the reasons behind the rules.