file Does Catatonic Fear + Target Vitals work?

21 Apr 2013 06:53 - 21 Apr 2013 06:53 #47314 by Ankha

I have a different doubt about this. It seems to me there may be a slightly different timing window for CF and LA.

CF "inflict(s) 1 damage...once combat ends." This timing window has been ruled to be outside of combat so you can't play damage prevention combat cards. By the same logic, you couldn't play Taste of Vitae afterwards either since combat has ended and no combat cards can be played.

LA reads "combat ends and the opposing minion takes 1 damage." To me that implies those effects are applied simultaneously. If this is true, you can play end of round effects after LA, such as Taste of Vitae. IIRC, you can play Taste of Vitae after S:CE because it is still an end of round card (hand strike, additional strike(s), majesty/earth meld, taste), or even Disarm by the same reasoning.

No, damage is done after combat.

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Last edit: 21 Apr 2013 06:53 by Ankha.

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24 Apr 2013 09:27 #47529 by Pascal Bertrand

I have a different doubt about this. It seems to me there may be a slightly different timing window for CF and LA.

CF "inflict(s) 1 damage...once combat ends." This timing window has been ruled to be outside of combat so you can't play damage prevention combat cards. By the same logic, you couldn't play Taste of Vitae afterwards either since combat has ended and no combat cards can be played.

LA reads "combat ends and the opposing minion takes 1 damage." To me that implies those effects are applied simultaneously. If this is true, you can play end of round effects after LA, such as Taste of Vitae. IIRC, you can play Taste of Vitae after S:CE because it is still an end of round card (hand strike, additional strike(s), majesty/earth meld, taste), or even Disarm by the same reasoning.

No, damage is done after combat.

groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!msg/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/PMfeHfvc7ys/dT5XN0_6L4EJ


Correct. See also General Rulings: Combat : "If the strike does something in addition to ending combat, that something takes place just after the combat ends. [RTR 19970630] " (soon to be updated with "something {else than untapping}"

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24 Apr 2013 09:54 - 24 Apr 2013 09:54 #47535 by Boris The Blade
What is the reason for that general ruling since there is always and end of round phase? Or to say it differently: when that ruling was made in 1997, could you play a Taste of Vitae after a combat ends, and were people aware of it? Obviously, the early designers were not comfortable with combat stuff happening after a combat ends. That's how we got Psyche!, the combat card played outside of combat. Since you decided to fix Psyche!, I would find it logical to fix that ruling as well.
Last edit: 24 Apr 2013 09:54 by Boris The Blade.

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24 Apr 2013 11:57 #47548 by Ankha

What is the reason for that general ruling since there is always and end of round phase? Or to say it differently: when that ruling was made in 1997, could you play a Taste of Vitae after a combat ends, and were people aware of it? Obviously, the early designers were not comfortable with combat stuff happening after a combat ends. That's how we got Psyche!, the combat card played outside of combat. Since you decided to fix Psyche!, I would find it logical to fix that ruling as well.

I don't know what is "obvious", especially with rulings that old.
What is sure is that changing the ruling has quite an impact since damage from a Catatonic Fear could be prevented for instance, and tasted.
Moving Psyche! from outside combat to combat induces only a marginal effect that is you can now cancel it with Death Seeker.

In truth, a ruling is needed either way. "Combat ends, and the opposing minion takes 1 damage" could be interpreted both ways (either the damage is dealt at the same time combat ends, or the damage is dealt after combat ends).

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24 Apr 2013 13:30 #47552 by Jeff Kuta

Correct. See also General Rulings: Combat : "If the strike does something in addition to ending combat, that something takes place just after the combat ends. [RTR 19970630] " (soon to be updated with "something {else than untapping}"


Thanks for this. Pascal has the toughest job on the IC and does it admirably.

When you are anvil, be patient; when a hammer, strike.
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24 Apr 2013 14:17 - 24 Apr 2013 14:19 #47559 by jamesatzephyr

What is the reason for that general ruling since there is always and end of round phase?


There were differences between various CCGs on this sort of thing. As I recall, Magic had disputes about: Is "end of turn" a specific step after all the other phases of a turn (which might be lost if you jump out of the normal order)? Or is it whenever the turn ends (if something aborts it prematurely)?

It had to be resolved one way or the other, I guess.

LSJ appears to have generally preferred not imbuing words with magical meaning, if not necessary. (What you think is necessary and what he thought was necessary may differ, of course.) So the end of a turn is whenever the turn ends. The end of a round is whenever a round ends.

Or to say it differently: when that ruling was made in 1997, could you play a Taste of Vitae after a combat ends, and were people aware of it?


No, because Taste of Vitae wasn't played at the end of the round. It was played "after strike resolution", which you'd just "interrupted" with Majesty. [LSJ 19980113] (Note that the reference to the end of round in that ruling is talking about when Drawing out the Beast did its damage - during the Press step, by Sabbat text - not the general timing of Taste of Vitae per se.)

ToV's card text changed on this point in Camarilla Edition. (Looking at the scans on vtes.pl and web.archive.org/web/20070102210459/http://www.white-wolf.com/VTES/migration.html )
Last edit: 24 Apr 2013 14:19 by jamesatzephyr.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Juggernaut1981, Boris The Blade

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