Does Catatonic Fear + Target Vitals work?

jamesatzephyr wrote:

There were differences between various CCGs on this sort of thing.

Actually, there are already differences within VTES: "action ends" effects prevent you from playing any other effect in that action, "combat ends" effects do not prevent you from playing any other effect in that combat.

Non-existant user wrote:

jamesatzephyr wrote:

There were differences between various CCGs on this sort of thing.

Actually, there are already differences within VTES: "action ends" effects prevent you from playing any other effect in that action, "combat ends" effects do not prevent you from playing any other effect in that combat.

I think James's point was that there wasn't really back in ye old days of yore as obedience/kiss of ra probably weren't played how they are now (I certainly recall players ferajkign after kiss of ra for many years!)

Non-existant user wrote:

Actually, there are already differences within VTES: "action ends" effects prevent you from playing any other effect in that action, "combat ends" effects do not prevent you from playing any other effect in that combat.

It's an interesting parallel, but - I think - not one that's exact.

When combat ends (and the round ends), you can fit in a bunch of "As the round ends" or "As the combat ends" effects. For example, you can play cards such as Taste of Vitae:
Disarm:
Pulled Fangs:
Amaranth: Implicitly played at the end of a round (wounded vampire going to torpor = ends the combat), covered specifically in RTR 20-OCT-2000.


All of these sort of effects are playable after, say, Strike: Combat Ends, Rotschreck, Elysium: The Arboretum, or Mariel, Lady Thunder. (Again, RTR 20-OCT-2000.) The triggering condition for them to be played happens, so you can play it. You can also obviously play cards like Telepathic Tracking and Psyche! (The details of Psyche! have obviously changed a little.) You can even play Hidden Lurker and fizzle the rest of Rotschreck, because you trigger the condition of Hidden Lurker.


As far as I can tell, 99% of action modifiers (or reactions) do not have windows that they trigger in such as "As the action ends" (equivalent to "As the round ends" or "As the combat ends"). Without that, you just order them one after the other - play, resolve, play, resolve. If playing one of them invalidates a play that either player would make later, that's just tough cookies. For example:

1) I am the acting player/have the impulse and use an effect before range is chosen that ends combat. (Elysium, Purchase Pact, Mariel etc.) Your blocking Trujah does not get to quickly say "Well, I hit you with Outside the Hourglass then", because it can't "interrupt" the resolution of Elysium without some triggering text.

2) I play Call of the Hungry Dead, ending (failing) the block attempt of your only vampire. That about-to-not-be-a-blocker can't sneak in during that point and say "While the block is about to fail, I play Elder Intervention, just to cycle." No triggering text, so it can't be played. So we fully resolve Call of the Hungry Dead, now you can play your effect - but it's impossible now that you're not blocking.


So if you have an effect that triggers "at the end of an action", you might be able to play it when an action ends through - say - Kiss of Ra. It does have triggering text to interrupt the normal "play-resolve, then the next one" mechanism. (Or more generally: resolve one effect at a time. Not all cards resolve as they are played: actions and strikes. But you do generally fully resolve the card before moving on to the next effect.) See [LSJ 20100409] . There is some back and forth in the thread, but I think LSJ acknowledges that Momentary Delay would be playable as the action ends from Kiss of Ra except...

And since the block has been cancelled, the extra requirement isn't met - so it isn't playable.

I'm fairly certain I am not misrepresenting the output of that thread to say that LSJ retreats from:

LSJ, wrote:

> 1) Kiss of Ra ends the action, as noted by floppy,
> 2) Kiss of Ra cancels the block, so the action is not blocked, as you
> noted, and
> 3) this vampire lost 3 blood, unless xe somehow pays less for Kiss of
> Ra.

> So there would seem to be plenty of reasons why you can't play
> Momentary Delay after Kiss of Ra.

Correct.

(Which potentially endorses all the points.)

To:

LSJ, wrote:

> I'm not trying to be difficult, but it doesn't seem to make sense.
> Kiss of Ra ends an action, and another card, Momentary Delay, is
> playable after the end of an action ...

As you and wumpus both noted, Momentary Delay is not usable because it
is only usable after a blocked action, and the action in question is
not blocked.

Which to me appears to be saying that Momentary Delay would be playable then, except that its other criteria aren't met.



Freak isn't playable, because it's played "at the end of a successful action" - the action wasn't successful - or "even if it was blocked" which, per that Momentary Delay response above, "the action in question is not blocked". Ditto Sleep Unseen: "Only usable at the end of a successful action." Truth of a Thousand Lies: "Only usable at the end of a successful action" Vigilance: "Only usable at the end of a successful action "

I think you might be overreading it.
"Momentary Delay isn't playable because A, B, and C" + "remove A, B and C" should drive you to "Is Momentary Delay playable", rather than "Momentary Delay is playable".

It's the same ruling as Obedience + Freak Drive : [LSJ 20040927] .

See also the philosophy behind [LSJ 19981029]

Pascal wrote:

I think you might be overreading it.
"Momentary Delay isn't playable because A, B, and C" + "remove A, B and C" should drive you to "Is Momentary Delay playable", rather than "Momentary Delay is playable".

I read this as:

"Momentary Delay isn't playable because of A and B."
"But doesn't Momentary Delay's text say it can be played despite A?"
"Momentary Delay still isn't playable because of B."

Pascal wrote:

It's the same ruling as Obedience + Freak Drive : [LSJ 20040927].

See also the philosophy behind [LSJ 19981029]

Hence I'm basing my question on a (significantly) later ruling.

[LSJ 20100206] wrote:

> The acting vampire played Mirror Walk superior, and got successfully
> blocked. Can he play Momentary Delay on this action (it should be No,
> with similarity to Mirror Walk & Freak Drive)?

Right. Cannot play modifiers after the end of the action.

(Now, I'm getting confused with Google Groups's date representation, but at least this one is pretty close both in time and in content to the ruling you're looking for)