About Dual Form and its chaining

Even shorter: Don't chain Dual Forms if your vampires are going to get crapped on.

That's the most sound advice on this particular topic.

This topic got me thinking: A has PRO and vic/VIC, creates B, B triggers Dual Forms burn clause; question 1:can A play Reform Body?(If yes,then when can he do that,I guess not if B was acting.);question 2: what happens if A can and does play it, does it trigger DF again, or as per mentioned before, since DF already triggered in this case, it will not do so again? Hope that last part was not too confusing.

Reform Body
Disciplines:Vicissitude
Card Type:Combat/Reaction
[vic] Only usable by a vampire being burned; he or she is sent into torpor instead. Usable by a vampire in torpor. Usable by a tapped vampire.
[VIC] As above, and this vampire gains 2 blood from the blood bank.

Marakh wrote:

This topic got me thinking: A has PRO and vic/VIC, creates B, B triggers Dual Forms burn clause; question 1:can A play Reform Body? (If yes,then when can he do that,I guess not if B was acting.)

Assuming A was either in combat or can play a reaction card, yes, that's fine.

A could be in combat while B burns out of combat, though that would be relatively rare. Imagine something bonkers such as an out-of-combat vampire playing Martyr's Resilience and burning from an Infernal Familiar. Easier combinations are probably available.

A could play it as a reaction when another Methuselah's minion is acting. So not just A and B, assuming they have the same controller, but any minion controlled by their controller.

Marakh wrote:

;question 2: what happens if A can and does play it, does it trigger DF again, or as per mentioned before, since DF already triggered in this case, it will not do so again? Hope that last part was not too confusing.

If B goes to torpor, A is burned. Because A is being burned, A plays Reform Body. A therefore goes to torpor, but this isn't a "new" unreadying of A (who was already being burned), so DF doesn't trigger again. So end result: B in torpor (as originally happened), A in torpor (saved by RB).

If B is burned (rather than going to torpor), the end result would be: B burned (as originally happened), A in torpor (saved by RB).

[LSJ 20050120] (This is slightly icky because LSJ has to correct himself.)

LSJ wrote:

>>1. Bob is unreadied => buddy burn => Burn Pete.
>>2. But Pete plays Reform Body => unready Pete => buddy burn => Burn Bob.
>
>
> Wouldn't that be chain-effect?

Yes. Scratch that.
RF doesn't unready Pete -- he's already been unreadied by buddy burn.
So no new buddy burn.

So Bob is unreadied -> Burn Pete. Pete plays Reform Body. Bob ends up wherever Bob was going, and Pete ends up in torpor.

Hum... this is a bit confusing...

Lets put it this way...

Hukros creates one DF...

Hukros is down to one blood...

Other player calls one Sleep of reason on Hukros... Hukros is going to torpor...

According to DF both of the vampires should be burned...

Hukros plays Reform body (and is still going to torpor).

So the DF is still being burned... (Card text)...

Can the DF play one Reform Body as well? (I think so)...

Second scenario:

Hukros is "enkil coged"... and is acting on other methuselah turn...

Is blocked and enters combat and shamefully is sent to torpor...
So the DF triggers...
He plays RB (combat version) and is sent to torpor.
Can the DF play a RB as a reaction?

Thanks

@Wesile:

Vamp X played Dual Form creating Xb

Scenario 1:

X goes to leaves the ready region as part of resolving an action (Sleep of Reason, Horseshoes, Banishment).
IF the action has resolved, then it has ended and there is no action to react to so Reform Body cannot be played.
IF the action has NOT ended and X is no longer ready, then Xb should burn from Dual Form but plays Reform Body to go to the Torpor region instead of the ashheap. X goes to torpor, Xb burns.

Scenario 2:

The CRR doesn't provide any guidance about the 'limbo status' that vampires can have when they are going to torpor or exactly when that ends. BUT...

If X was acting and enters torpor at some point during the combat, Xb cannot play Reform Body because it was not a minion involved in combat. X goes to torpor, Xb burns.

If X was acting and enters torpor after the combat, then Xb cannot play Reform Body because X was the acting minion and is now in torpor so X cannot take the action (presumably with obvious exceptions such as Movement of the Slow Body) leaving there to be no action for Xb to play a reaction upon. Separately to this X and Xb are controlled by the same Methuselah so Xb cannot play reactions while X is the acting minion. X goes to torpor, Xb burns.

wesile wrote:

Other player calls one Sleep of reason on Hukros... Hukros is going to torpor...

According to DF both of the vampires should be burned...

This looks like a source of misunderstanding.

If one vampire (A) goes to torpor, a single copy of DF will burn the 'buddy' (B). However, B being burned won't then reflect back onto A and burn A. (But if either A or B are connected to other vampires with other copies of Dual Form, they will chain.)

wesile wrote:

Hukros plays Reform body (and is still going to torpor).

Sleep of Reason just torporises Hukros, so Reform Body isn't playable.

wesile wrote:

Can the DF play one Reform Body as well?

If you don't control the acting minion (who's playing Sleep of Reason), yes, the buddy who's being burned can play Dual Form. (Assuming they're not ineligible for some other reason, obviously.)

wesile wrote:

Hukros is "enkil coged"... and is acting on other methuselah turn...

The other-turnness doesn't matter - reactions and action modifiers are restricted based on who controls the acting minion, not whose turn it is.

(If this were Master: Out-of-turn, those do care about whose turn it is.)

wesile wrote:

Can the DF play a RB as a reaction?

No. You control the acting minion.