Rötschreck vs Riposte

How should be rosovbed Rötschreck vs Riposte?
Combination:
1) Range is close, second round of combat.
2) Acting minion played "Riposte"
3) Blocking minion use hand strike, Bone Spur and played Rötschreck.
How should be resolved this situation?
Can Rotsherk work and can it be played?
Can Riposte work?

Riposte
[cel] Strike: combat ends, and inflict 1 damage to the opposing minion once combat ends if the range is close (damage not preventable). Not usable on the first round of combat.

Bone Spur
pro] For the remainder of this round, this vampire`s hand damage is aggravated.

Rotschreck
Master: out-of-turn. <Frenzy> Put this card on a vampire when an opposing minion attempts to inflict aggravated damage on him or her, whether the damage would be successfully inflicted or not. Combat ends. This vampire is tapped and sent to torpor. This vampire does not untap as normal. During this vampire's next untap phase, burn this card.

Keiran wrote:

How should be rosovbed Rötschreck vs Riposte?
Combination:
1) Range is close, second round of combat.
2) Acting minion played "Riposte"
3) Blocking minion use hand strike, Bone Spur and played Rötschreck.
How should be resolved this situation?
Can Rotsherk work and can it be played?

Yes.

A frequent misunderstanding is that S:CE doesn't end combat as soon as it's played or anything like that. You go through all of "Choose Strike" for both players, then you move on to "Resolve Strike". Combat ends is the first thing to go off in Resolve Strike.

You play Rotschreck during Choose Strike. When you play it, it ends combat, sends the vampire to torpor etc. This is because master cards (unlike strikes and actions) resolve when played, with no delay.

So:

Resolve Strike is never reached. The effects of the strikes never go off and are lost.

Keiran wrote:

Can Riposte work?

Not unless Rotschreck is cancelled somehow (e.g. a Wash).



Note that the same applies to all strikes - Rotschreck pre-empts you getting to Resolve Strike, so things that happen in Resolve Strike don't happen.

For example:

- I play Majesty (superior), you attempt some agg damage and play Rotschreck. Combat ends. I don't get to untap from my Majesty, which would happen when the strike resolved.

- I play Catatonic Fear (superior) or Oubliette (superior). You attempt some agg damage and play Rotschreck. Combat ends. You take no damage from Catatonic Fear, nor the burn blood/burn life effect from Oubliette.

- I play some strike. You declare a strike with a gun and Dragon's Breath Rounds. You play Rotschreck. Combat ends. Because we never go to Resolve Strike, your gun doesn't burn, which happens when you resolve the strike, not when DBR is played.

- I play Carrion Crows before range. During Choose Strike, you attempt some agg damage and play Rothscreck. Combat ends. We never get to Resolve Strike, so you don't take the damage from my Carrion Crows. Nor would you take the damage from my Murder of Crows retainer.

- I strike for hands, and you play Burst of Sunlight. You play Rotschreck. Combat ends. I go to torpor (from Rotschreck), but because we never resolved the Burst of Sunlight strike, you don't take the agg damage that it would have dealt.


Yes, Rotschreck is pretty awesome.

This leads to a powerful but tricky deck-type, involving Malkavians and Madness Network, often with Protean for Claws and untap (Homunculus). Rush out of turn, play some agg damage, and play Rotschreck - because even though you're acting, it's not your turn. This deck type is tricky to run, but awesomely fun. Note that because of the way Madness Network now works, the Methuselah whose turn it is can act after you've taken an out-of-turn action (assuming they have minions who can act), so they may well be able to rescue themselves right there and then. Plan carefully. In years gone by, Madness Network only kicked in after the Methuselah whose turn it is had given up the right to act that turn, now it just follows the normal sequencing rules (with the Methuselah whose turn it is always getting the next right to do something, unless they pass - such as starting an action).

Note also that Rotschreck can be partially nullified without actually cancelling it with Wash/Sudden Reversal etc. When you play it, it goes on the vampire. Then combat ends. Then it taps vampires and sends them to torpor. If you play something like Psyche! or Telepathic Tracking at the point that combat ends, the card is still on the vampire, but the tap-this-vampire-and-go-to-torpor effects are lost. (The "do not untap as normal and burn this card" effects go off as normal, being conditional on the card being in play.)

1) The Bone Spur COULD hit (i.e. ignoring the opposing minion's strike, the Bone Spur is at the right range to cause aggravated damage)
2) Once the strikes are declared, Rotschreck is played. Rotschreck ends the combat following its text.
3) The Riposte never resolves, neither does the Bone Spur.

So,
Acting minion goes to torpor with Rotschreck on them. Riposte does nothing to the blocking minion.

Thank's! You gave me a lot amount of deck-building ideas=)

with the Methuselah whose turn it is always getting the next right to do something, unless they pass - such as starting an action

This is not true. If the situation changes, you get the momentum back.

If the way you write was true, stealth would be hardly playable: vamp A declares bleed at +1 stealth, vamp B wakes, vamp A passes (no modifiers to play), vamp B gets +1 intercept, vamp A can't play stealth, because he did not play it after the wake.

In a sense, you could decline your actions to see if Malks use Madness Network. If they do, you can take actions, if they don't, you move on to transfer phase.

kombainas wrote:

with the Methuselah whose turn it is always getting the next right to do something, unless they pass - such as starting an action

This is not true. If the situation changes, you get the momentum back.

The usual word is "impulse", not momentum.

It's best to try to avoid re-inventing terminology for no purpose, since it makes things much harder to search for.

kombainas wrote:

If the way you write was true, stealth would be hardly playable: vamp A declares bleed at +1 stealth, vamp B wakes, vamp A passes (no modifiers to play), vamp B gets +1 intercept, vamp A can't play stealth, because he did not play it after the wake.

Umm, okay? After the Vamp B plays Wake, the "Methuselah whose turn it is gets the next right to do something", such as playing more stealth. Just like I said.

Passing on your opportunity to play an effect is not the same as closing the window in which to play such effects. (Unless you're the last person with the opportunity to pass doing so.) Because the impulse always returns to the Methuselah whose turn it is. When they pass, it goes to someone else. If someone else plays an effect, the impulse returns to the Methuselah whose turn it is.

kombainas wrote:

In a sense, you could decline your actions to see if Malks use Madness Network. If they do, you can take actions, if they don't, you move on to transfer phase.

That's not "in a sense". That's how it works.