Mirror Walk v. Obedience

maybe that's something that could be cleaned up a bit timing wise as it's not obvious from the rules how that timing works in terms of cards reactions versus 'reaction' when it comes to action end - but it'd be easy to do the stages in the blocking section of the ruelbook

i have few more questions for you. it was mentioned sooner in this thread, but it's still not completely clear (at least not for me)

Vamp A plays action
Vamp B attempt to block
Vamp A plays MW
Vamp B gets intercept - source may matter (Melange sup)
action is blocked

option 1
A does use text of MW - all cleared above

option 2
A does want to use slave option of his other minion
is this possible? without MW card text of action end kicking in?

option 3
A declares action blocked and then play Change of target and using it's action end effect instead of action end effect from MW. is this possible?

option 4
A declared action blocked uses MW special text to cancel combat and then after canceled combat tries to use special of Ambulance?
Ambulance
Type: Equipment
Cost: 1 pool
Vehicle.
After a combat between this acting minion and a blocking minion, you may tap the Ambulance to continue the action as if unblocked. If the action is blocked again, burn this card. This minion may tap the Ambulance to attempt to burn an incapacitated imbued as a +1 stealth action. A minion may have only one vehicle.


my last question is little bit out of this discussion, but it's related to same phase of game;
A plays action
B block
A declares action blocked and want to use his slave minion
G as a slave of A enters combat with B

may B play cards at this point? there are some other cards that are related to before/after combat phase and acting minion. it's clear for fast reaction and hiddne lurker as those require acting minion in combat, but there are some cards that does not require combat to occur with acting minion actually, see cards extracted below:
Hard Case
Type: Reaction
Requires: Fortitude
Cost: 1 blood
Only usable when this vampire successfully blocks an ally or younger vampire.
[for] Cancel the resulting combat.
[FOR] As above, and destroy a weapon or vehicle on the acting minion.

possibly only inferior version might be played as superior targets acting minion.

Diabolic Lure
Type: Reaction
Requires: Daimoinon/Auspex
[aus] Reduce a bleed against you by 1.
[dai] Requires an infernal vampire. Only usable when this vampire successfully blocks. Put 4 pact counters on the acting minion. If the number of pact counters equals or exceeds his or her capacity or cost, burn them to make him or her infernal.
[DAI] As [dai] above, and the acting minion's controller burns 1 pool.

targets acting minion, while entering combat with slave???

Type: Reaction
Requires: Temporis/Presence
Cost: 1 blood
Only usable by a vampire who successfully blocks.

 This blocking vampire can end combat as a strike during the resulting combat. If he or she does so and the acting minion is an ally or a younger vampire, this blocking vampire untaps.

[tem] This blocking minion sets the range for the first round of the resulting combat. Skip the determine range step for that round.

[TEM] The acting minion doesn't untap during his or her next untap phase.



pre and tem versions might apply. TEM targets acting minion...



Extortion

Type: Reaction

Requires: Serpentis

Cost: 1 blood

Only usable when this vampire successfully blocks (play after combat, if any). Usable by a tapped vampire.

[ser] Put this card on the acting minion. The minion with this card burns an additional blood to untap during his or her untap phase. A Methuselah can burn the Edge to burn all Extortion cards he or she has.

[SER] The acting minion's controller takes control of this card (put this card in play). The controller of this card burns 1 pool during his or her untap phase. He or she can burn the Edge to burn all Extortion cards he or she has.



ser is questionable. SER targets minion controller instead of minion - this does not change with slave rule use, so it might be still valid



there might be some other cards. i found these only at the top of my head.



EDIT: clarification for questions and typo corrections.

Ankha wrote:

Asnek wrote:

my last question is little bit out of this discussion, but it's related to same phase of game;
A plays action
B block
A declares action blocked and want to use his slave minion
G as a slave of A enters combat with B

may B play cards at this point? there are some other cards that are related to before/after combat phase and acting minion. it's clear for fast reaction and hiddne lurker as those require acting minion in combat, but there are some cards that does not require combat to occur with acting minion actually, see cards extracted below:
Hard Case
Type: Reaction
Requires: Fortitude
Cost: 1 blood
Only usable when this vampire successfully blocks an ally or younger vampire.
[for] Cancel the resulting combat.
[FOR] As above, and destroy a weapon or vehicle on the acting minion.

You can't use Hard Case, because the combat is not resulting from the block (that combat has been cancelled) but from the Slave ability.

thanks for clarification for hard case. same will go for few of the list as well as they refer to resulting combat
but what about those other cards? for example diabolic lure and extortion really interest me as i have deck build around these two right now (cybele block).

for diabolic lure per card text i believe that you can play it after you have blocked, but i'm not sure if you get a impulse to play it after action is declared blocked or acting vampires controller is first one to use his slave option. is there technically difference between phases: action blocked/resulting combat is about to start?
extortion as well does not contain magic words resulting combat so i'm not sure again. slave option is just canceling combat, but is acting vampire still considered acting for purposes of extortion? what about SER version that target's controller of acting minion - controler did not change at all only minion in combat?

Asnek wrote:

for diabolic lure per card text i believe that you can play it after you have blocked, but i'm not sure if you get a impulse to play it after action is declared blocked or acting vampires controller is first one to use his slave option.

Linked earlier in the thread, the acting vampire gets the first opportunity to use "is blocked" effects, including invoking the slave rule.

[LSJ 20090513]

LSJ wrote:

> Acting minion is blocked. This is how I think things are sequenced.
> a1 - Acting minion can play cards or use effects as he is blocked:
> Change of Target, Aching beauty, use the Slave rule, ..

when a block is successful, yes.

> a2 - Reacting minion can play cards as he blocks: Minor Irritation,
> burn acting's blood to the Banshee Ironwail, Voice of Madness, Mental
> Maze,

Yes.

However, invoking the Slave rule doesn't preclude playing other "as blocked" effects before the combat is entered. (Using an effect that ends the action does precluding playing Diabolic Lure.)

[LSJ 20080904]

LSJ wrote:

> So I think the correct sequence is:
> 1) Tremere attempts to recruit a retainer.
> 2) Ser vamp blocks.
> 3) Tremere's Meth chooses to use Slave mechanic or not.
> 4) Set's Call is played either way. Combat does not occur either way,
> due to card text on Set's Call.
>
> Correct?

Correct.

Set's Call text:

Asnek wrote:

is there technically difference between phases: action blocked/resulting combat is about to start?

Not according to [LSJ 20090513] - the a1/a2 thing cited above. It continues to this bit:

LSJ wrote:

> a1& a2 only happen when there is an acting minion blocked.
>
> At this point, minions are about to enter combat.

Minions were about to enter combat when the acting Methuselah declared the block
successful.

> b1 - acting Meth may use "about to enter combat" effects: Promise of
> 1528, Diamond Thunderbolt (if it's a Malkavian acting via Madness
> Network / a vampire using the Enkil Cog)

These were all options in a1.
There is no separate b1.

Of course, "foo is about to enter combat" could be played at times when you're about to enter combat without a block e.g. a successful rush action.

Asnek wrote:

but is acting vampire still considered acting for purposes of extortion?

Nothing changed who the acting minion was (see Mask of a Thousand Faces for that sort of thing), so the acting minion is still the acting minion. The same would be true of, say, Free Fight, where Blood Brothers can switch in and out of combat, but - assuming one of them was the acting minion - the acting minion would still be the acting minion.

Asnek wrote:

what about SER version that target's controller of acting minion - controler did not change at all only minion in combat?

Should be fine, yes.