file Time for negotiation after playing a card before terms are set

15 May 2014 04:28 #62393 by Brum
There are three types of people in this thread.
-People who agree that the rules are clear enough and therefore you can't negotiate a revealed card.
-People who agree that the rules are clear enough and therefore you can't negotiate a revealed card, but nevertheless seem to keep this going to annoy certain individual(s).
-People who don't see in the rules any reason not to negotiate.

The Rules IC has ruled that in the meantime we should NOT negotiate while playing cards.
Note that meantime might mean many things, but there's a good probability Pascal will clarify what most of us are saying.

1.6 Rulebook

A card is played by placing it face up in the playing area or by showing it to the other players and placing it face up in the ash heap. The player completely declares the effect of the card when it is played.


Do A. Do B when doing A.

Seems pretty simultaneous to me.
If it makes a big difference, change the "when" to "while".

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15 May 2014 10:35 #62403 by Suoli

Brum wrote: Do A. Do B when doing A.

Seems pretty simultaneous to me.
If it makes a big difference, change the "when" to "while".


Is talking an effect or play in the mechanical framework of the game? Do you need impulse to make a deal? If yes, that's not clear from the rulebook. If not, it should follow the same rules and timing as breathing unless explicitly stated otherwise.
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15 May 2014 11:43 - 15 May 2014 11:44 #62406 by ReverendRevolver
We need a fulltime job (or six of them) dedicated to compiling all rules into a new rulebook, and them asking everyone to read it as interperatively and obtusely(is that a word?) As possible, then re edit said rulebook, rinse and repeat until these things stop showing up.

Or, we could get a definitive answer from Floppy, and call it a day. Its apparently not gonna resolve on its own, since ive watched TWO smart people spend 14 hours arguing semantics, who the hell knows how long a forum full of nominally intelligent ones can keep going...

Im noticing people on both sides of the nitpicking divide onboard with the "its revealing" side, while filks not normally as quick to nitpick are saying its legal to fillibuster after flashing the card to the table. So, Pascal?
Last edit: 15 May 2014 11:44 by ReverendRevolver.

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15 May 2014 11:53 #62407 by Brum
I show you (and all players) a card from my hand.
When I do this, I declare its effects and its targets, because that's what's in the rules.

If you (or anyone) interrupt me or speak over my voice, you're being rude to say the least.
If I show you the card and say nothing about its declaration (and don't move the card to it's target - when applicable - just let it hang there) I'm cheating.

<My Opinion>I'm gaining an "edge" in negotiations that is unbalanced and goes against the spirit of intrigue and bluff that this game has.</My Opinion>

Why not do it in your turn?
Why not show a Pentex from my hand every turn during other players minion phase as a reminder?
Because it's illegal: can't reveal cards from my hand.
Even right before I play them.
Because it's right there in the rules. Declaring the effects is part of playing a card.
If I'm not declaring the effects, I'm not playing the card.

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15 May 2014 13:44 #62410 by Suoli

Brum wrote: I show you (and all players) a card from my hand.
When I do this, I declare its effects and its targets, because that's what's in the rules.


It's not obvious that you can't show a card, declare it's effects and negotiate. You seem to be saying that negotiating is a defined in-game action that occupies some timing window. If not, it can't interrupt anything because it doesn't exist in "game time" (that is, within the framework of sequencing and timing windows).

Why not show a Pentex from my hand every turn during other players minion phase as a reminder?


To be extra clear, nobody is defending the revealing of cards without playing cards.
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15 May 2014 13:52 #62411 by BenPeal
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