file Outside the Hourglass / Vampiric Disease

19 May 2014 07:19 - 19 May 2014 07:25 #62536 by Shockwave
Shockwave created the topic: Outside the Hourglass / Vampiric Disease
Synesios is acting, and is blocked by Stick, who has a Vampiric Disease counter. Before combat begins, Synesios plays Domain of Evernight at tem, to make all resulting damage aggravated, then before Range is determined, plays Outside the Hourglass to inflict 2 Aggravated damage and send Stick to torpor.

Does Synesios get a VD Counter?

Vampiric Disease
Master.
Put a disease counter on any vampire. Each time a vampire with a disease counter is in combat at close range with another vampire, the second vampire gets a counter as well. An afflicted vampire cannot gain blood by hunting. When an afflicted vampire untaps, he or she burns a blood or, if unable, burns the disease counter. A vampire can have only one disease counter.

Outside the Hourglass
[obf] Strike: dodge.
[tem] Maneuver, or strike: dodge, with an optional maneuver.
[TEM] Only usable before range is determined. Inflict 2 damage on the opposing minion. A vampire can play only one Outside the Hourglass at superior each round.

Arguments for:
If you play DoE/OtO, you can play Pulled Fangs, which required range to be Short, because all combats begin at Close Range.

See:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/j98aqFIFjnE/Ir3zBp44KXYJ

Oddball:
If the above is true, Vampiric Disease should be entirely unavoidable, because VD's text triggers "Each time a vampire with a disease counter is in combat at close range with another vampire, the second vampire gets a counter as well." which means they should get a VD counter the moment a combat starts (because they're at Short) rather than after you've determined range.

Unless they're not at Short until after range is determined, in which case the ruling linked shouldn't work, and you shouldn't be able to play Pulled Fangs.

(N.B This is because Vampiric Disease has terrible card text that doesn't specify but does imply when it occurs. :) The actual result is that VD determines effect after Range has been determined, which means after our hypothetical Stick went to torpor he was at Short, so Synesios gets the Vampire AIDS from him.)

REMINDER: This was actually discussed and covered in the link provided, by the way!

:AUS: :FOR: :VAL: Here we go again....
Dave Knowles (Advanced)
Sabbat Bishop of Manchester
Last Edit: 19 May 2014 07:25 by Shockwave.

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19 May 2014 09:11 #62538 by jamesatzephyr
jamesatzephyr replied the topic: Re: Outside the Hourglass / Vampiric Disease

Shockwave wrote: (N.B This is because Vampiric Disease has terrible card text that doesn't specify but does imply when it occurs. :) The actual result is that VD determines effect after Range has been determined, which means after our hypothetical Stick went to torpor he was at Short, so Synesios gets the Vampire AIDS from him.)


It's not that] terrible, considering that when it came about, the weirdnesses that we get now from things like Fear of the Void Below didn't exist. Back in Jyhad, all combats would have defaulted to close range in the 'before range is determined' step, but that basically wasn't interesting for any effects at the time (it is now). So the only time being 'at close range' made much sense to people was after you'd determined range. Otherwise, Vampiric Disease's text would likely just have said "When in combat with a vampire with a counter..." with no mention of range.


I'd be in favour of clarifying the online card text to make this clear, of course!

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12 Jan 2018 16:23 #84875 by Kushiel
Kushiel replied the topic: Re: Outside the Hourglass / Vampiric Disease
While looking up something unrelated on the forums, I came across this thread and used superior Necromancy on it. Was the question in the OP ever answered?

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12 Jan 2018 16:49 #84877 by kschaefer
kschaefer replied the topic: Re: Outside the Hourglass / Vampiric Disease
Ugh, the listed thread is gnarly.

LSJ wrote: >
> > Pulled Fangs can be played in this situation because nothing has yet
> > altered the default range, and nothing will, but the combat is already
> > at an end.
>
> By this reasoning a Vampiric Disease counter should be passed as well.
Except that card text on VD is clearly using the "after range is
determined" window.


I think the reasoning that LSJ is suggesting this is that the combat must be known to be at close range for VD to work, which means that range must be known, cf. Pulled Fangs, which doesn't need to know the range, it's just only playable at one range, close. So, if combat ends prior to determining range, VD doesn't trigger.

I think this is a tricky thing to understand and agree with jamesatzephyr that some clarifying text on VD would be useful.

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