file Does "during strike resolution" effect works vs combat ends?

14 Apr 2016 11:59 #76424 by Keiran
Does "during strike resolution" effect works vs combat ends?
For example,
Dark Steel
[obt][pot] The opposing minion takes 1 damage each round of combat during normal strike resolution (at close range). This vampire gets an optional maneuver this round, only usable to go to close range.

Does this effect work if opposing minion play strike: combat ends?

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14 Apr 2016 14:04 #76426 by alek

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14 Apr 2016 14:48 #76427 by Ankha

No.

Correct, because damage are dealt "during normal strike resolution" which happens after the resolution of strike: combat ends.
(Same thing for Carrion Crows).

Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

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14 Apr 2016 17:48 - 14 Apr 2016 18:07 #76428 by Bloodartist

No.

Correct, because damage are dealt "during normal strike resolution" which happens after the resolution of strike: combat ends.
(Same thing for Carrion Crows).


Where does it say that it is dealt during "normal strike resolution" (whatever that means anyway)? All of the cards in question say simply "strike resolution".

Also: strike resolution isn't well defined in the rules that I can find on this site. It is not a step apparently, since only steps listed are determine range step, strike step and press step. Therefore strike resolution apparently refers to only resolving strikes rather than a rules-defined moment in time.

I cannot find it mentioned anywhere that there would be meaningful difference between resolving a combat end strike and a different kind of strike. I do not understand why crows wouldn't trigger during resolution of opponents combat end strike. (Even though it makes sense in games mechanics sense that it does not.) My point is that it is not clearly defined when these cards actually resolve

Even in the case (which seems likely) that the card should say "deal 1 damage during the resolution of YOUR OWN strike" rather than every strike, then the player who played crows or dark steel could play his own combat ends. Does dark steel trigger during resolution of that?

If dark steel/crows/etc is meant to trigger only during players own DAMAGING strike(note that it doesnt actually read so in the cards), then what if player B plays card that gives additional strikes? Does dark steel resolve once during each of those strikes? It certainly looks like it should, considering strike resolution is not a step and I cant figure out any other way for this to work. The only remaining option would be resolving at the end of combat (which it doesn't actually read in the cards plus then it would trigger if opponent plays combat end) or some imaginary moment in time that doesn't exist before end of combat but after resolving every strike. If you ask me, these rules are an awful mess.

Now, I have pretty good idea what the answer is going to be, I just wish to point out that the rules and the cards wordings do a REALLY poor job clearly defining what actually happens. Primarily because cards/rules refer to things that either don't exist or aren't clearly defined. In this particular case, the problem imo is that strike resolution is not clearly defined.

If it was within my power, I would probably rewrite the combat rules part entirely by adding enough steps to cover all of possible weird cards that do things at weird times.

A heretic is a man who sees with his own eyes.
—Gotthold Ephraim Lessing



Last edit: 14 Apr 2016 18:07 by Bloodartist.

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14 Apr 2016 20:22 #76434 by alek
Combat end effect is clearly described in the rules.
"Combat Ends. This effect ends combat immediately. This type of strike is always the first to resolve, even before a strike done with first strike, and it ends combat before other strikes or other strike resolution effects are resolved. Combat ends is effective at any range. Combat ends is not affected by a dodge, since dodge only cancels effects that are directed at the dodging minion."

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14 Apr 2016 21:15 #76436 by Ankha

No.

Correct, because damage are dealt "during normal strike resolution" which happens after the resolution of strike: combat ends.
(Same thing for Carrion Crows).

Where does it say that it is dealt during "normal strike resolution" (whatever that means anyway)? All of the cards in question say simply "strike resolution".

No, Dark Steel says "normal strike resolution".
This has been clarified by an old ruling (for Carrion Crows etc.), and appears in the latest cardtexts.

Also: strike resolution isn't well defined in the rules that I can find on this site. It is not a step apparently, since only steps listed are determine range step, strike step and press step. Therefore strike resolution apparently refers to only resolving strikes rather than a rules-defined moment in time.


It's written in the rulebook:

6.4.3. Strike

During the strike phase, the minions strike each other (if possible) or make an effort to avoid being struck (by dodging, for example). Note that not all strikes are aggressive. Defensive effects such as dodges are also considered strikes (see Strike Effects, sec. 6.4.5).

Normally, each minion gets only one strike per round. Some cards may allow a minion to get additional strikes during a round of combat. Each pair of strikes (one from each of the minions) is resolved before going on to the next pair. If only one minion has additional strikes, the "pair" will be just his strike.

During each pair of strikes, the minions first choose their respective strikes (the acting minion first, then his opponent), and then the strikes are resolved. Strike resolution occurs simultaneously, except for a few special cases (see Strike Effects, sec 6.4.5).

I cannot find it mentioned anywhere that there would be meaningful difference between resolving a combat end strike and a different kind of strike

Rulebook, in the same passage I quoted, then in the details of each type of strike (as Alek pointed out).

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Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

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