file Outside the hour glass, rotschreck and disarm

26 Aug 2017 09:55 #83222 by M.Schumacher
The scenario is:

A trujah in combat plays Outside the hourglass to inflicht 2 damage before range.
The opossing minion then strikes agg and plays rotschreck.
Does the Trujah have the option to play disarm?
Im asking this because rotschreck sends the trujah to torpor after combat ends, so
technically when the round ends, the trujah is still ready and has inflicted more damage at close range than his opponent.

Outside the Hourglass
[obf] Strike: dodge.
[tem] Maneuver, or strike: dodge, with an optional maneuver.
[TEM] Only usable before range is determined. Inflict 2 damage on the opposing minion. A vampire can play only one Outside the Hourglass at superior each round.

Rötschreck
Master: out-of-turn. Frenzy.
Put this card on a vampire when an opposing minion attempts to inflict aggravated damage on him or her, whether the damage would be successfully inflicted or not. Combat ends. This vampire is tapped and sent to torpor. This vampire does not untap as normal. During this vampire's next untap phase, burn this card.

Disarm
[pot] Only usable at close range at the end of a round of combat in which this vampire successfully inflicted more damage than the opposing vampire. Not usable by a vampire being burned or going into torpor. Put this card on the opposing vampire and send that vampire into torpor. The vampire with this card has -1 strength. He or she may burn this card by burning 3 blood. A vampire can have only one Disarm.
[POT] As above, but the vampire with this card has -2 strength.
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26 Aug 2017 11:28 #83223 by self biased
Rötschreck is sending the Trujah to Torpor. Disarm cannot be played by a vampire going to torpor (second sentence in the inferior text).

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26 Aug 2017 11:59 #83224 by M.Schumacher
The point is that rötschreck only sends u to torpor after combat ends.
So first combat ends, then the window for taste, disarm psyche is open, then the trujah goes to torpor.

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26 Aug 2017 19:43 - 26 Aug 2017 19:44 #83225 by Boris The Blade
The readiness requirement is also present on Psyche, and is has already been ruled that Psyche can be played on a Rötschreck, therefore Disarm must be playable as well for consistency.

That being said, even without Rötschreck, there seems to be inconsistent wordings on the sequencing of torpor and combat end.

Not usable by a vampire being burned or going into torpor

Only usable at the end of a round when both combatants are still ready

The Disarm wording implies that wounded vampires go to torpor after combat ends whereas the Psyche! wording implies the other order. Note that it could just be a legacy bug on Psyche! from the time it was played after combat ends.
Last edit: 26 Aug 2017 19:44 by Boris The Blade.

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27 Aug 2017 17:41 - 27 Aug 2017 17:53 #83233 by jamesatzephyr

The readiness requirement is also present on Psyche, and is has already been ruled that Psyche can be played on a Rötschreck, therefore Disarm must be playable as well for consistency.


Psyche! can be played in the window when combat ends from a Rotschreck. Combat is ending (from the Rotschreck), and both combatants are still ready because nothing has yet sent them to torpor. Rotschreck ends combat, then after combat has ended applies a go to torpor effect.

Other cards that go at the end of round can also be played in the combat ends window of Rotschreck. Often, this is Taste of Vitae (e.g. [FZD 20111203] ). It's usually not Disarm because it's usually the case that neither combatant has inflicted any damage at that point. However, if they have and so the requirements of Disarm are met, there's nothing stopping you playing it during the end of round window. A normal strike followed by an additional agg strike would do it similarly, assuming you had in fact inflicted more damage.

The Disarm wording implies that wounded vampires go to torpor after combat ends whereas the Psyche! wording implies the other order. Note that it could just be a legacy bug on Psyche! from the time it was played after combat ends.


Vaguely kinda sorta.

Becoming un-ready is what ends combat - combat requires ready participants. However, there's still a bit of combat in which to play cards like, say, Taste of Vitae, from the end of round/end of combat window, and so that vampire is still a combatant (briefly). The cards which can go in that window but which don't want them to be played by a vampire who has just been whacked into torpor tend to talk about that as "going to torpor" - they could probably equally say "who has just been sent to torpor" or similar.

Note that one or two cards can sneak in there and swap the torporization for a straight burn, such as Decapitate because it uses the word "instead" in "Burn the opposing vampire instead of sending that vampire to torpor."
Last edit: 27 Aug 2017 17:53 by jamesatzephyr.
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02 Sep 2017 07:30 #83340 by beslin igor
To check if I understood correctly.
Therefore, the trujah against whom it is played Rötschreck,him can play Disarm and Decapitate,so him burn oposing vampire and then him goes to torpor by Rötschreck text?

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