question-circle DNR Counts Against Hand Size - Meddling of Semsith and Raptor

17 Mar 2018 22:40 #85837 by Killiam
Killiam created the topic: DNR Counts Against Hand Size - Meddling of Semsith and Raptor
There is a long-standing disagreement in my playgroup that could use settling. The General Rulings state that “The cards that you are currently not replacing count against your hand size.” The disagreement is about exactly what is meant by the turn of phrase “count against.” Allow me to illustrate:

Player A has passed The Meddling of Semsith targeting Player B. Player A controls Louhi, who has 2 Raptors in her employ (yes, this is a deck of mine. I am player A.)

Player B, whose hand size is 7, takes an action during his own turn and is blocked by Louhi. His hand size is reduced by 2 for the combat, so he discards down to 5. No combat cards are played. After combat, Player B does not replace back up to 7 per the card text of Meddling. So far, there is no disagreement. The 2 unreplaced cards are “counting against” his hand size.

B takes another action, which is also blocked by Louhi. Now for the disagreement: does Player B drop 2 more cards?

If “counting against your hand size” means that his hand size is technically 5 until replacement time, at which point the 2 will no longer “count against” his hand size and hand size returns to 7, then he drops down to 3 cards due to having his hand size reduced by 2 more.

If “counts against” means that after the first combat, his hand size is technically 7 and he is merely holding only 5 because of a non-replacement cost of 2 that is “counting against” that 7, then maybe he does not drop 2 more cards. His hand size get reduced to 5 again for the combat (from that base size of 7), and since he’s holding only 5 cards, no problem.

PLEASE NOTE: I put this question to an online VTES group, and originally consensus was for the latter interpretation (where B does not drop cards for the second combat), but then LSJ chimed in saying that that interpretation (involving the tracking of 2 different hand sizes) constitutes a change in the rules from 2010. IS THERE A NEW, PERTINENT RULE to overturn the way it would have been ruled in 2010?

For context, here is Ben Peal's post, followed by LSJ's response:
Ben Peal:. "If “counts against” means that after the first combat, his hand size is technically 7 and he is merely holding only 5 because of a non-replacement cost of 2 that is “counting against” that 7, then maybe he does not drop 2 more cards. His hand size get reduced to 5 again for the combat (from that base size of 7), and since he’s holding only 5 cards, no problem." Exactly this.
L. Scott Johnson: FWIW, this would be a change from 2010. Back then, there weren't two different hand sizes to maintain (although players usually did try to distinguish between hand size and cards not being replaced). The 7 less 2 cards not being replaced would mean his hand size is technically 5, so when he enters combat and has his hand size reduced by two, it would go to 3.

For your consideration:
1. What does hand size mean? Is it the maximum you /would/ hold if there were no reduction being applied, the maximum you /can/ hold while waiting for the reduction to be removed, or something else?
2. Does "count against your hand size" mean that you include it in the hand size count, yeilding a new hand size, or does it mean that hand size remains static and you "count against" it while calculating how many cards to actually hold?

Meddling of Semsith, The - Political Action
Choose another Methuselah. If this referendum is successful, put this card in play. Your hand size is one card smaller. The chosen Methuselah doesn't draw to replace cards during any Methuselah's minion phase. After each minion phase, he or she draws back up to his or her hand size. Any vampire may call a referendum to burn this card as a +1 stealth political action.

Raptor - Retainer
[Animalism] Animalism
[2 Blood]
Animal with 1 life.
[ani] The minion with this retainer gets +1 intercept.
[ANI] As above, and when the minion with this retainer is in combat, the opposing minion's controller gets -1 hand size.

-Killiam
(Bill Troxel)
"How did some slip of a girly boy from communist East Berlin become the internationally ignored song stylist barely standing before you?" -Hedwig Robinson

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18 Mar 2018 11:13 - 18 Mar 2018 11:17 #85841 by Ankha
Ankha replied the topic: DNR Counts Against Hand Size - Meddling of Semsith and Raptor
To summarize: hand size reduction ("-1 hand size") and cards that count against your hand size ("Do not replace...") are cumulative, they don't overlap.

Killiam wrote: Player A has passed The Meddling of Semsith targeting Player B. Player A controls Louhi, who has 2 Raptors in her employ (yes, this is a deck of mine. I am player A.)

Player B, whose hand size is 7, takes an action during his own turn and is blocked by Louhi. His hand size is reduced by 2 for the combat, so he discards down to 5. No combat cards are played. After combat, Player B does not replace back up to 7 per the card text of Meddling. So far, there is no disagreement. The 2 unreplaced cards are “counting against” his hand size.

Correct. During combat, B has a hand size of 5. After combat, he should draw back to 7 but the Meddling prevents it. The two cards that should be replaced are now counting against his hand size.

Killiam wrote: B takes another action, which is also blocked by Louhi. Now for the disagreement: does Player B drop 2 more cards?

Yes. B's hand size drops from 7 to 5, and B has two unreplaced cards that count against his hand size. Since they are cumulative, B has to discard 2 cards to match his hand size of 5, out of which 2 cards are still unreplaced. So B has 3 cards in hand.

Killiam wrote: If “counting against your hand size” means that his hand size is technically 5 until replacement time

No. His hand size is unaffected by the number of cards that are counting against it.
For instance, I have a hand size of 7 and seven cards in hand. Each of them is counting against my hand size.
If I played a card with a DNR clause, my hand size would still be 7, with 6 present cards counting against it, and 1 card that wasn't replaced that also counts against it.

Killiam wrote: If “counts against” means that after the first combat, his hand size is technically 7 and he is merely holding only 5 because of a non-replacement cost of 2 that is “counting against” that 7

Correct.

Killiam wrote: , then maybe he does not drop 2 more cards. His hand size get reduced to 5 again for the combat (from that base size of 7), and since he’s holding only 5 cards, no problem.

No, because then the cards that were counting against your hand size would no longer do so. You can't get rid of a DNR clause by merging it with another effect.

Killiam wrote: PLEASE NOTE: I put this question to an online VTES group, and originally consensus was for the latter interpretation (where B does not drop cards for the second combat), but then LSJ chimed in saying that that interpretation (involving the tracking of 2 different hand sizes) constitutes a change in the rules from 2010. IS THERE A NEW, PERTINENT RULE to overturn the way it would have been ruled in 2010?

None I could find.

Also, it would mean that the following incorrect scenarios would be possible:

S1/ A is in combat against B with a Raptor. A's hand size is reduced by 1. A would be able to play a DNR card, and replace it (because A would consider that the DNR card is now the one that makes his hand size smaller).

S2/ A controls Thucimia ("Once each action, Thucimia can give you -2 hand size until your next unlock phase") and reduces their hand size by 2. Then A play a DNR event, and would merge the DNR effect with a -1 hand size. Then A would replace the card at their next unlock phase.

Killiam wrote: 1. What does hand size mean?

It is a value indicating how many cards you can hold (any extra card must be discarded).
Card in your hand count against this value. Cards that are not replaced until... count against this value. And you can't discard a card you don't hold in hand.

Killiam wrote: 2. Does "count against your hand size" mean that you include it in the hand size count, yeilding a new hand size, or does it mean that hand size remains static and you "count against" it while calculating how many cards to actually hold?

The latter. Your hand size doesn't change when you don't replace cards.

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Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Last Edit: 18 Mar 2018 11:17 by Ankha.
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18 Mar 2018 17:55 #85846 by Killiam
Killiam replied the topic: DNR Counts Against Hand Size - Meddling of Semsith and Raptor
Thanks so much for the concise, thorough ruling! It looks like in our playgroup, both sides of the argument were partially mistaken; this should clear it up. In any case, it's good news for my Louhi deck... mwahahaha!

Will post this to our local FB group.

Best,
-Bill

-Killiam
(Bill Troxel)
"How did some slip of a girly boy from communist East Berlin become the internationally ignored song stylist barely standing before you?" -Hedwig Robinson

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