file No Secrets from Vlad Tepes

05 Apr 2018 18:25 #86166 by Killiam
Replied by Killiam on topic No Secrets from Vlad Tepes


I'm not sure what to do with Vlad and No secrets to make it more intuitive...


A change I wouldn’t mind seeing is to restrict the “you can’t activate intercept that you don’t need” rule to apply only to the playing of reaction cards. (TBH, back when we were playing Jyhad in 94, I thought that was the actual rule.) Of course it is needed for reaction cards to avoid abuse, but what would be the case for abuse outside of that? If I tap KRCG when I don’t need it, have I really gained anything? Maybe the option to burn an extra pool so I can play a Parity Shift?

Sure, Maris Streck could arbitrarily empty herself during any action with a block attempt in order to make use of Jake Washington next turn. Not terrible. Angelica could cycle master cards while blocking a zero stealth action instead of having to wait for a +1 stealth action. Certainly helpful for that deck, but it’s not a game-breaker. Am I missing anything that constitutes a serious case for abuse?

I think the same change might go well for action modifiers and gaining stealth, though that’s not applicable to the Vlad situation.

To be crystal clear, my proposal would look something like the modification below. (The wording from the current rules is included first for reference.)

Rulebook:
“Stealth can be added during an action only when needed (that is, only if the action is currently being blocked and the blocking minion has enough intercept to block the acting minion). Likewise, intercept can be added during an action only when needed (that is, only by a blocking minion when the acting minion's stealth exceeds his intercept).”

Modification:
“Action modifiers granting stealth can be played during an action only when stealth is needed (that is, only if the action is currently being blocked and the blocking minion has enough intercept to block the acting minion). Likewise, reaction cards granting intercept can be played during an action only when intercept is needed (that is, only to grant intercept to a blocking minion, and only when the acting minion's stealth exceeds his intercept).”

It is a touch more wordy, but not confusing, unlike the Vlad situation.

I have never been a fan of the generalized intercept/stealth rule, as it can seem weird when enforced outside of the playing of cards. Controlling card flow is an integral part of how the game is designed and has evolved. Preventing the activation of in-play effects in ways not explicit to card text, on the other hand, *feels* arbitrary, and occasionally, downright counterintuitive.

Generally, I feel that there is more to be gained by such a rules change than just simplifying the Vlad case. When cards explicitly go against the normal rules, card-text takes precedence over the rules——that’s a big part of what makes this game fun while at the same time causing most of our woes. There are situations where the use of an in-play card effect is explicitly subverting the rules and that subversion interacts strangely with the need to enforce the standard (read: non-subverted) rules with respect to other cards in play. With this in mind, it may be that the fewer general restrictions we put on card-effects in play, the better.

A downside to this theory is that while we take some burden away from the base rules set, we end up passing more burden on to the design team, since cards have to be worded that much more carefully. But honestly, I think we have reached that point anyhow, and the tradeoff is worth it.

Sorry so long -- thanks for reading!

-Killiam
(Bill Troxel)
"How did some slip of a girly boy from communist East Berlin become the internationally ignored song stylist barely standing before you?" -Hedwig Robinson

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06 Apr 2018 07:26 #86173 by Lönkka
Replied by Lönkka on topic No Secrets from Vlad Tepes
I think being able to play as much stealth (or intercept) as you want would be bad for the game.

With stealth bleed dekcs the obvious problem is the hand jam. You need to get that additional modier or next action card but your hand is more or less full of stealth and the darn prey ain't blocking at all. Being able to play as much stealth as you will even if not needed would circumvent this and this would be A Bad Idea TM!

Probably the same case with wall decks and cycling of intercept to find something else that is needed instead of just those intercept cards (untap? useful combat card?).


All the above I can understand.

However, I still think it is highly counterintuitive not to be able (with Vlad) to block vampires as if untapped using NSFTM if the opponent is not using stealth. Or, in similar instance, to untap with Guard Duty.

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06 Apr 2018 09:48 #86174 by Ankha
Replied by Ankha on topic No Secrets from Vlad Tepes
I think it would be clearer by errating Vlad:

Independent: Vlad can play and uses cards requiring a title or a sect as if he had that title or were of that sect. +1 bleed.

That way, Vlad will be continuously "using" cards, the same way a vampire he mimics (eg. a Magaji) uses cards.

Until then, the ruling stands.

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06 Apr 2018 10:28 #86176 by TwoRazorReign

I think it would be clearer by errating Vlad:

Independent: Vlad can play and uses cards requiring a title or a sect as if he had that title or were of that sect. +1 bleed.

That way, Vlad will be continuously "using" cards, the same way a vampire he mimics (eg. a Magaji) uses cards.

Until then, the ruling stands.


The problem neither is with the text on the card nor with the current game mechanics. The problem is the interactions that arise from a minion acting as if they had a requirement they don't have. In my opinion, there's really no fixing this, other than having a section in the rulebook devoted to explaining how to handle card text that allows a minion to act as if they had a requirement they don't have.

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06 Apr 2018 11:49 #86177 by Ankha
Replied by Ankha on topic No Secrets from Vlad Tepes

The problem neither is with the text on the card nor with the current game mechanics. The problem is the interactions that arise from a minion acting as if they had a requirement they don't have. In my opinion, there's really no fixing this, other than having a section in the rulebook devoted to explaining how to handle card text that allows a minion to act as if they had a requirement they don't have.

No. The problem lies in how people supposed it works, and how it really works.

People expect Vlad to be able to use NSftM like a Magaji would. That's not the case => people are surprised and confused.
By changing Vlad's cardtext so he is able to use NSftM like a Magaji would, we remove that surprise.

The rules are fine. Adding a chapter like you suggest means that the cards can't be played as written, which is not good.

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06 Apr 2018 12:51 #86178 by TwoRazorReign

The problem neither is with the text on the card nor with the current game mechanics. The problem is the interactions that arise from a minion acting as if they had a requirement they don't have. In my opinion, there's really no fixing this, other than having a section in the rulebook devoted to explaining how to handle card text that allows a minion to act as if they had a requirement they don't have.

No. The problem lies in how people supposed it works, and how it really works.


That's because it's not described anywhere other than in your brain. What I'm saying is how it really works needs to be described somewhere. This doesn't have to be in the rulebook, it could be in a FAQ document that explains odd interactions (similar to something like this , which used to exist and did offer some explanations of odd interactions i the game and how they worked).

People expect Vlad to be able to use NSftM like a Magaji would. That's not the case => people are surprised and confused.


Because it's not clearly described anywhere how it's supposed to work. It it were, perhaps there'd be no surprise.

By changing Vlad's cardtext so he is able to use NSftM like a Magaji would, we remove that surprise.


By changing one word on a card is not going to make people understand anything. It's a step in the right direction to enable Vlad to use NSftM like a Magaji, but changing one word is not going to describe what's supposed to happen sufficiently.

The rules are fine.


Agreed.

Adding a chapter like you suggest means that the cards can't be played as written, which is not good.


I don't understand why you think that. Perhaps you misunderstood what I meant? The section in the rulebook would just further explain instances of a minion acting as if they had a requirement they don't have. I'm not proposing adding a section that's inconsistent with card text or rulings, rather a section that further explains the possible interactions and how to handle them that follows current rulings.

For those who have very expert knowledge of the game, changing one word on a card may be fine. But for the rest, there needs to be further explanation of how to handle situations where minions act as if they had a requirement they don't have. These interactions are very difficult for anybody to grasp, and I think further explanation somewhere would be beneficial. That's all I'm saying.
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