file Does No Secrets Get Nerfed?

02 May 2018 18:04 #86391 by Killiam
In the thread entitled “No Secrets from Vlad Tepes” it is ruled that Vlad Tepes cannot use No Secrets from the Magaji (NSftM) to block a vampire’s zero-stealth action, because when he uses it as a magaji during a vampire’s action, he gains an intercept against the current action that is not needed, which is disallowed by the rules.

Supposedly this drawback is unique to non-magaji who can use NSftM /as/ a magaji, because they activate the NSftM effects by using it, thus activating the intercept, whereas actual magaji do not activate NSftM; it is always on for them.

I brought this to my local playgroup and got an interesting response:

Note that NSftM is NOT worded as “The magaji with this card gets +1 intercept against vampires.” It is instead worded “The magaji with this card gets +1 intercept when attempting to block vampires.”

Note the words “when attempting”. This implies that the magaji with NSftM does not have +1 intercept against vampires /until/ he attempts to block them, which means that he activates the +1 intercept effect as a result of the block attempt. In other words, any magaji with NSftM who attempts to block a zero stealth action of a vampire /gets/ intercept that is not needed.

Does this mean that all magaji with NSftM are not allowed to block vampires acting at zero stealth?

If not, then why not?

If the answer is that the timing of declaring the block attempt with NSftM is prior to getting the intercept, and then you cannot help but get the intercept, then why would that same ruling not apply to Vlad Tepes?

Best,
-Bill

-Killiam
(Bill Troxel)
"How did some slip of a girly boy from communist East Berlin become the internationally ignored song stylist barely standing before you?" -Hedwig Robinson

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02 May 2018 18:32 #86392 by Killiam
Replied by Killiam on topic Does No Secrets Get Nerfed?
Oops -- forgot to include full card text:

No Secrets From the Magaji
[Action] Action

+1 stealth action. Requires a ready magaji.
Put this card on this magaji and untap him or her. The magaji with this card gets +1 intercept when attempting to block vampires. If this magaji is tapped, he or she may attempt to block a vampire as if untapped. Burn this card if this magaji attempts to block a vampire but is not successful. A vampire may have only one No Secrets From the Magaji.

Artist(s): Heather Kreiter

-Killiam
(Bill Troxel)
"How did some slip of a girly boy from communist East Berlin become the internationally ignored song stylist barely standing before you?" -Hedwig Robinson

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02 May 2018 19:07 #86393 by Ankha
Replied by Ankha on topic Does No Secrets Get Nerfed?

Note that NSftM is NOT worded as “The magaji with this card gets +1 intercept against vampires.” It is instead worded “The magaji with this card gets +1 intercept when attempting to block vampires.”

Both wordings mean the same.

Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

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02 May 2018 19:40 #86394 by self biased
so, a vampire that has a stock intercept like Jaroslav Pascek cant block unless the action is at stealth?

Man. Weve been playing that wrong for years.

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02 May 2018 20:14 #86395 by jamesatzephyr

so, a vampire that has a stock intercept like Jaroslav Pascek cant block unless the action is at stealth?


No. I think the difference being drawn out is that you can't play (or activate) an effect that gives you intercept unnecessarily. Permanent intercept that's just there - a vampire special, Mr Winthrop, Sport Bike etc. - isn't something you're activating, it's just there. For Magaji, the intercept is just there. For Vlad, it's not just there, it's Vlad activating his special to use it, which is more or less the same as Vlad playing an intercept reaction - which he can't voluntarily do without stealth being there (or card text allowing him to do it).

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02 May 2018 21:38 - 02 May 2018 21:50 #86396 by Killiam
Replied by Killiam on topic Does No Secrets Get Nerfed?
Sorry for persisting on this one; I answer to some nit-picky rules-lawyers here in Colorado.. anyhow:

I think that my playgroup showed how two different wordings lead to two different interpretations, so if both wordings are to be interpreted as having the same meaning, then which of the two meanings do we take?

Does A: the magaji get the +1 intercept only when blocking vamps, or B: do they have the +1 intercept (against vamps) even when not blocking? Does NSftM get nerfed ( A ) or not ( B )?

To further clarify the position: there seems to be precedent in V:TES for making a distinction between always having an effect that applies only in a situation vs. only having the effect during the situation for which it applies: Justicar Retribution.

Imagine that all Methuselahs currently control ready Malkavians and I control Rebecca, Chantry Elder, who is equipped with a Laptop. Rebecca has 3 bleed against any Methuselah at the table (because they control Malks), but she only gets it when she is bleeding, so she is not burned by Justicar Retribution, whereas Leandro does burn to JR because his +2 bleed is a standing plus-bleed. That is, Leandro has +2 applied to his bleed actions, but is considered to have that +2 even when he is not in a bleed action. Rebecca has a third bleed applied to her bleed actions, but is not considered to have it when she is not bleeding.

Thanks much!

-Killiam
(Bill Troxel)
"How did some slip of a girly boy from communist East Berlin become the internationally ignored song stylist barely standing before you?" -Hedwig Robinson

Last edit: 02 May 2018 21:50 by Killiam. Reason: Edited to remove unintentional emojis

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