Option A vs B, where to begin?

brandonsantacruz wrote:

Hi Daniel,
Sure! What have been the easiest or most confusing parts of the game since you have started? The leadership at VEKN is considering some changes to the way combat works, or at least is worded, and you may have some fresh insight.

Hi!

I think I touch a little about it on my first Thread here a few months ago.

Going through the 2017 rulebook, The easiest part to understand, on the minion phase, was the stealth /intercept, politics, the action types broadly speaking

Most difficult is definitely combat and the timing structure of actions

Going in more detail about combat the most difficult aspects were maneuvers (using weapons), damage resolution (aggravated and damage prevention) while additional strikes and strike effects (except steal blood) were easier to grasp.

I still struggle on my play group when a combat happens that involves maneuvers and / or press. That's why I sometimes opt to play with the simple rules detailed on the original VTES rulebook

One common complaint was the amount of iconography and other memory issues like:

• Card Icons (disciplines, actions, clans, etc.)
• Titles & Votes
• Phases of a turn
• Transfers

But the above was heavily mitigated by having a reference card

hope this helps

ReverendRevolver wrote:

And given the over the top crazy in the other threads, they will probably run an option A while testing variants of B.x

I really wouldn't worry about the nonsense going on in other threads. I think the current owners are smart enough to choose the best thing available and ignore all the armchair game designers on these forums (who should definitely not quit their day jobs...)

Personaly I do not understand all the fuzz about combat. The combat de have is fine. It is just that some parts that are improtant for the combat are littered through the rulebook.
Basically it is:
1. Pre combat
2. Range / maneuver
3. Pre strike
4. Choose strike
5. Assign damage / strike effect (strike < first strike < SCE)
6. Apply blood loss through effects (I.e. theft of vitae)
7. Prevent damage
8. Apply unprevented damage in the minion, Check for torpor or burn
9. Check for / play presses

ScoundrelAtHeart wrote:

Basically it is:
1. Per combat
2. Range / maneuver
3. Per strike
4. Choose strike
5. Assign damage / strike effect (strike < first strike < SCE)
6. Apply blood loss through effects (I.e. theft of vitae)
7. Prevent damage
8. Apply unprevented damage in the minion, Check for torpor or burn
9. Check for / play presses

10. End-of-round window

Which is the part of the problem with combat IMO. 8+ 'steps' or windows (depending on how you break it down) per round, per vampire, per player is a bit ridiculous.

Of course, once players become acquainted with all the cards and decks and the way combat works, it's not hard. But even with all of the timing windows properly codified, there is still the potential for skipped phases and misplays unless players literally go down the 8+ step checklist one step at a time.

And frankly, I'm not sure what the benefit of Option A is other than having everything codified in the rule-book. You would still have to print half-a-dozen or more words to specify all of these timing windows, even if the terms were made less ambiguous, but that's a slightly different (but related) problem.

Option B gets my vote. I think more flexibility in timing would make things more interesting, quicker, more fun, and add more depth to the game (because the number of cards and effects that could theoretically counter and interact with other cards is greater.)

To me and my players the steps look very clear and need about 30 to 45 seconds in total for both players.

The problem with the text needed on cards is a problem though