file Actions, combat, for beginners

23 May 2018 03:10 - 23 May 2018 06:58 #87363 by ReverendRevolver

DanielG wrote: Going through the 2017 rulebook, The easiest part to understand, on the minion phase, was the stealth /intercept, politics, the action types broadly speaking

Most difficult is definitely combat and the timing structure of actions

Going in more detail about combat the most difficult aspects were maneuvers (using weapons), damage resolution (aggravated and damage prevention) while additional strikes and strike effects (except steal blood) were easier to grasp.

I still struggle on my play group when a combat happens that involves maneuvers and / or press. That's why I sometimes opt to play with the simple rules detailed on the original VTES rulebook

One common complaint was the amount of iconography and other memory issues like:

  • Card Icons (disciplines, actions, clans, etc.)
  • Titles & Votes
  • Phases of a turn
  • Transfers

But the above was heavily mitigated by having a reference card :)


So.....

Actions:
I declare an action.im going to say the action is a Govern the unaligned with Jephta Hester[a !ventrue with :DOM: :FOR: :aus: ](I po it the card next to the now locked minion, and more the beads (if any) required for the cost from minion to action card) this is also the time to play anything stating "only usable as the action is announced" , like Seduction.
Impulse goes out to the table to play cards that cancel the action, such as Direct Intervention or Dark influences. Lets assume they don't cancel the action.
It's a bleed action directed at my prey. So, my prey gets the impulse to block me. They do. I choose to play Bonding at :DOM: for +1 stealth and +1 bleed.

Let's look at the 3 likely outcomes from here:
1. My prey has no way to get intercept. They ask "how much?" Which is then closing the window to block, passing the impulse. (Also, effects that let another player block ANY action, such as Eagles Sight would be played here, when normal blocker declines).
I tell them "just 4" since Bonding prevents anything else from increasing the bleed amount. They burn 4 pool, I gain the edge. The action is ending, I may play freak drive if I choose.
2. Let's skip to the part above where they say "how much?" . I say 4, and they play Telepathic Misdirection and say "to my prey". I'm now bleeding my preys prey for 4 at one stealth, and they have the option to block, etc.
3. I play bonding, my preys Felicia Mostrom ( Toreador, :AUS: :CEL: :pre:) plays a card granting +2 intercept (Eyes of Argus) . We are in combat.

I'm the acting minion. That means I have the impulse first in combat. Combat starts with the window of time called "before range is determined " also known as pre range. The slang for cards played here is "pres" for simplicities sake, I'll say I play none of these cards.
My prey now has the impulse and plays concealed weapon. This is a pre with no cost or requirement. It allows a minion to equip a non-unique weapon that costs 3 or less pool that does less than 4 damage and no aggravated damage. Felicia equips a 44 magnum. 2 pool is paid by her controller. The impulse passes back to me. I still have nothing and move on. We are in the manuever stage. I don't manuever. She goes to long with the 44 magnum. (Having used this manuever, her initial strike this round now is committed to the 44 magnum). I regain impulse, still do nothing, and declare my strike (hands. At long range. So I'm waving as I'm being shot at) Felicia shoots for 2R with gun. I play Indomitability to prevent one damage with an optional press. (I had 5 blood starting with, since my Govern was blocked) Felicia plays Blur for 2 additional strikes. Each is 2R with gun. I'm out of blood, but not in torpor. I press to end. (That's the step after additional strikes) combat is ending. Felicia plays Psyche! A new combat starts. She goes to long. This time, she plays Dragons Breath Rounds. Her gun now does +2 aggravated damage.

The first single point of aggravated damage sends me to torpor. To prevent my own demise, I must burn one blood for each additional point of aggravated damage after the first one. But I'm out of blood, and have 3 aggravated damage to deal with, so I burn.



It helps to actually play, but i hope I've given something usable. Maybe let us know what you have and we can explain what they do and when they do it.
Last edit: 23 May 2018 06:58 by Ankha.
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23 May 2018 05:44 #87368 by brandonsantacruz

ReverendRevolver wrote: So.....

Actions:
I declare an action.im going to say the action is a Govern the unaligned with Jephta Hester[a !ventrue with :DOM: :FOR: :aus: ](I po it the card next to the now locked minion, and more the beads (if any) required for the cost from minion to action card) this is also the time to play anything stating "only usable as the action is announced" , like Seduction.
Impulse goes out to the table to play cards that cancel the action, such as Direct Intervention or Dark influences.


Actually, the window to cancel Govern is before Seduction is played. There is a silent "as announced" phase that happens after playing govern where you play seduction (or other cards that are "only usable as the action is announced")

Be careful when you fight the monsters, lest you become one.
-Friedrich Nietzsche

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23 May 2018 07:20 #87371 by jamesatzephyr

ReverendRevolver wrote: I'm out of blood, but not in torpor. I press to end. (That's the step after additional strikes) combat is ending. Felicia plays Psyche! A new combat starts. She goes to long. This time, she plays Dragons Breath Rounds. Her gun now does +2 aggravated damage.

The first single point of aggravated damage sends me to torpor. To prevent my own demise, I must burn one blood for each additional point of aggravated damage after the first one. But I'm out of blood, and have 3 aggravated damage to deal with, so I burn.


DBR does +2 aggravated damage, on top of 2 normal damage. The base damage (the normal damage from .44 Magnum) doesn't inherit the properties of the additional damage. You're not taking 4 agg damage.

Since you're already empty, the first point of normal damage will send you to torpor because you cannot heal it. The second point of normal damage is irrelevant. The first point of aggravated damage will now just burn you - it doesn't send you to torpor, because you're already on your way to torpor. The second point of agg damage is irrelevant.

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23 May 2018 11:18 #87379 by Bloodartist

brandonsantacruz wrote: Actually, the window to cancel Govern is before Seduction is played. There is a silent "as announced" phase that happens after playing govern where you play seduction (or other cards that are "only usable as the action is announced")


I was under impression that seduction is played practically at the same time as govern, and neither card is replaced until it is clear that no direct intervention is coming. I'm bit busy right now so I'm not going to waste time digging up the post where I saw it as reference..
I'm saying this because if no cards are replaced, its relatively easy to backtrack what happened (a DI is played), even if players made a mistake in the ordering. If I'm mistaken, it sorta just proves that these things are too hard to remember and too complex.

For the record, I was severely confused when I learned that "as the action is announced" and "As the card is played" are two separate phases, and announcing the action phase comes AFTER playing the card.
That makes no sense to me, and is also opposite how it is done in Magic btw. In magic you first state your intent, and THEN play the card.

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If you want to go with me, refuse the light"
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23 May 2018 12:57 - 23 May 2018 12:58 #87384 by Ankha

Bloodartist wrote:

brandonsantacruz wrote: Actually, the window to cancel Govern is before Seduction is played. There is a silent "as announced" phase that happens after playing govern where you play seduction (or other cards that are "only usable as the action is announced")


I was under impression that seduction is played practically at the same time as govern, and neither card is replaced until it is clear that no direct intervention is coming. I'm bit busy right now so I'm not going to waste time digging up the post where I saw it as reference..

Even if you find it, your reference is wrong.

Bloodartist wrote: I'm saying this because if no cards are replaced, its relatively easy to backtrack what happened (a DI is played), even if players made a mistake in the ordering.

Ordering? You mean if the player didn't leave the time for other players to cancel the action card?
Otherwise, the order is : play the action card, replace, play the Seduction, replace.

Bloodartist wrote: For the record, I was severely confused when I learned that "as the action is announced" and "As the card is played" are two separate phases, and announcing the action phase comes AFTER playing the card.
That makes no sense to me, and is also opposite how it is done in Magic btw. In magic you first state your intent, and THEN play the card.

I think you are mixing up "All details of the action are declared when the action is announced, including the target(s), the cost, the effects, etc." (6.2.1. Announce the Action) and "as the action is announced" additional effects.

1. Play the action card.
1' Declare the details of the action.
2. Cancel ?
3. Replace
4. Play an "as the action is announced" effect
4'. Declare the details of that effect (the vampire who is being Seduced)
5. Cancel ?
6. Replace
Repeat 4. as many times as desired

1. and 1". can be done simultaneously (= in any order as nothing is really simultaneous). That's where your Magic analogy fits.

4. + 4'. happen a long time after.

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Last edit: 23 May 2018 12:58 by Ankha.
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23 May 2018 15:43 #87391 by brandonsantacruz

Ankha wrote:
1. Play the action card.
1' Declare the details of the action.
2. Cancel ?
3. Replace
4. Play an "as the action is announced" effect
4'. Declare the details of that effect (the vampire who is being Seduced)
5. Cancel ?
6. Replace
Repeat 4. as many times as desired

1. and 1". can be done simultaneously (= in any order as nothing is really simultaneous). That's where your Magic analogy fits.

4. + 4'. happen a long time after.


I wasn't aware that DIs (or Power of All, etc) are resolved before players replace their cards. This would mean that:

Player A plays Mind Rape and announces Player B's star minion, who he will tell to Abactor and vote to burn himself next turn

Player B says "Fuck that, DI" (neither have replaced yet)

Player C says "I like where this is going, let's get non-consensual" and Suddens player B's DI (none have replaced)

Player D is playing a shitty deck and all he does this game is play Power of All once, on player C's Sudden. No one cancels Power of All because they have never seen it before, are in awe.

Everyone redraws. Player B breathes a sigh of relief until the second Mind Rape hits the table....

Sound about right?

Be careful when you fight the monsters, lest you become one.
-Friedrich Nietzsche

brandonsantacruz.blogspot.com/

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