question-circle Retainers Damage and Disciplines

12 Jun 2018 13:40 - 12 Jun 2018 13:41 #88121 by Ratadin
Hi!

Recently I was building a deck with retainers, and a couple of questions araised between a friend and me regarding retainers (card texts on the bottom).

First, do damage done by retainers are considered done by the employer? This question came from reading Ex Nihilo, which explained that "this vampire does no damage on combat", but we couldn't agree if retainer damage (like from Vengeful Spirit) was considered done from "this vampire" or from the retainer, although we could agree that enviromental damage could come from "this vampire" if it were done from cards like Carrion Crows, as it was being played by the vampire.

Second, we came to a problem with retainers and requirements, and by extension to all attached cards in general. Are requirements (like disciplines) checked constantly whenever the effect of an attached card is to be taken into account, or is it only checked when the card is played? To elaborate, if minion A with basic Animalism plays a Raptor, and after that they upgrade their Animalism to superior, as I understand it the Raptor would not improve to reduce your opponent hand size, as the Raptor was played through basic Animalism, not superior. Similarly, if I played Atonement on an unmerged Tariq, if later i were to merge him, raising his capacity from 3 to 7, I understand that Tariq would keep the Atonement and all its effects (+1 intercept and not locking to block younger vampires), as would any vampire which capacity were to be raised above the requirements after the card is played.

As Ankha would say, "card text". Going along card text, I understand that the answer to the first question is that, if the retainer says "this retainer does X damage", the damage comes from the retainer, not the vampire, and so it would damage the opposing minion even if the employed had an Ex Nihilo attached. For the second question, I understand that unless the card specifies a requirement on its effects (like Razor Bat specifying "This Gargoyle" instead of "this minion"), the effect would resolve no matter the disciplines and status of the actual employer/attached minion, but I would like a confirmation.

Thank you.

Card Texts:

Vengeful Spirit
Wraith with 2 life.
The employer gets +1 bleed. Vengeful Spirit inflicts 1 damage on the opposing minion each round of combat during normal strike resolution at close range.

Ex Nihilo
+1 stealth action.
[nec] Put this card on this vampire. This vampire gets +1 stealth. He or she inflicts no damage in combat, and he or she is immune to non-aggravated damage. This vampire cannot gain blood (any blood he or she would gain goes to the blood bank instead). During your master phase, this vampire burns 1 blood or is burned. You can burn this card during your unlock phase.
[NEC] As above, but you can burn this card during any Methuselah's unlock phase.

Raptor
Animal with 1 life. [ani] The minion with this retainer gets +1 intercept. [ANI] As above, and when the minion with this retainer is in combat, the opposing minion's controller gets -1 hand size.

Atonement
+1 stealth action. Requires a vampire with capacity 5 or less.
Put this card on this vampire. This vampire gets +1 intercept. He or she does not lock when he or she blocks a vampire of the same age or younger. Any vampire can burn this card as a (D) action; Followers of Set get -1 stealth on that action.

Carrion Crows
Only usable before range is chosen. [ani] The opposing minion takes 1R damage each round of combat during strike resolution. A vampire can play only one Carrion Crows each combat. [ANI] As above, but for 2R damage.
Last edit: 12 Jun 2018 13:41 by Ratadin.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
12 Jun 2018 14:09 #88122 by Kraus
This was somewhat discussed here:

www.vekn.net/forum/rules-questions/76687-retainers-inflicting-damage-environmental

The ruling, in my understanding, is that only strikes done by the minion (or other effects that explicitly say 'inflict' like Outside the Hourglass) are inflicted (thus counted towards Ex Nihilo). Retainers and Envionmental are a source of their own, and bypass Ex Nihilo.

"Oh, to the Hades with the manners! He's a complete bastard, and calling him that insults bastards everywhere!"
-Nalia De-Arnise

Facebook @ VtES: Joensuu
www.vekn.net/forum-guidelines

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
12 Jun 2018 16:17 #88129 by Ankha

Kraus wrote: This was somewhat discussed here:

www.vekn.net/forum/rules-questions/76687-retainers-inflicting-damage-environmental

The ruling, in my understanding, is that only strikes done by the minion (or other effects that explicitly say 'inflict' like Outside the Hourglass) are inflicted (thus counted towards Ex Nihilo). Retainers and Envionmental are a source of their own, and bypass Ex Nihilo.

Correct.

Ratadin wrote: Hi!
To elaborate, if minion A with basic Animalism plays a Raptor, and after that they upgrade their Animalism to superior, as I understand it the Raptor would not improve to reduce your opponent hand size, as the Raptor was played through basic Animalism, not superior.

Correct.

Ratadin wrote: Similarly, if I played Atonement on an unmerged Tariq, if later i were to merge him, raising his capacity from 3 to 7, I understand that Tariq would keep the Atonement and all its effects (+1 intercept and not locking to block younger vampires), as would any vampire which capacity were to be raised above the requirements after the card is played.

Correct.

Ratadin wrote: I understand that the answer to the first question is that, if the retainer says "this retainer does X damage", the damage comes from the retainer, not the vampire, and so it would damage the opposing minion even if the employed had an Ex Nihilo attached.

Correct.

Ratadin wrote: For the second question, I understand that unless the card specifies a requirement on its effects (like Razor Bat specifying "This Gargoyle" instead of "this minion"), the effect would resolve no matter the disciplines and status of the actual employer/attached minion, but I would like a confirmation.

All correct.
Also, you quoted Carrion Crows: damage from Carrion Crows is not inflicted by the opposing minion, nor a retainer.

Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
Moderators: AnkhaKraus
Time to create page: 0.107 seconds
Powered by Kunena Forum