Orun + Barrenness [RTR]

Hey all!

I've a doubt about rullings regarding Orun vs Barrenness. There are three cases, where two of them happened during the game and the third one didn't happened because I didn't wanted to spend another 30 minutes discussing rules without knowing the facts.
So, let's get on it!

First and foremost, the texts:

[Orun]
Master: Triffle
Put this card on a Laibon. For non-Orun cards played by Methuselahs other than this Laibon's controller, this Laibon is considered to have 2 additional capacity. A Laibon gets an additional vote for every three Orun he or she has. If this Laibon successfully bleeds for more than 2 or successfully performs a action against a non-mortal minion, he or she burns one Orun. Burn this card if this Laibon has more Orun and Aye than his or her capacity.

[Barrenness]
Action. Burn Option. Maleficia
+1 stealth action.
[mal] Put this card on a vampire and untap this acting vampire. This vampire is sterile and his or her capacity decreases by 2 (to a minimum of 1.) [mal] is not a Discipline.
[MAL] Burn a vampire whose capacity is 1.

---

What happened was:

1)
- I had [Lucian, the Perfect] on my ready region, with one [Orun].
- My prey played [Barrenness] on him.
- I explain that, for non-Orun cards played by other players than me, this laibon is considered having 2 additional capacity.
- We scratch our heads when calculating Lucian's actual capacity.
- What we defined after some time was:
"When played, Lucian had (illusory?) a capacity of 13. So now, [Barrenness] makes me go to 11 (which I already had)." So, no changes for me (Lucian's controller).

This is the first thing I wanted to confirm.
If any laibon has more than one [Orun] on him, one Barrenness shouldn't make a difference for the controller of the affected minion, because [Orun] has this weird thing where only I know the real capacity of the vampire, and I surely don't control the [Barrenness] played on him.

2)
- I had [Nana Buruku] on my ready region, without any [Orun] on her.
- My prey played [Barrenness] on Nana. Nana is now at 6-capacity and loses 2 blood (because she was full).
- On my turn, I play [Orun] on her.
- What we defined was:
"Since the [Barrennes] was already in play, the declared amount of capacity would remain reduced, since [Orun] does not increase the capacity of the laibon."

This is easy to understand but, again, is kinda nice to know the rule.

3)
This is purely hypothetical now, but I had Orun enough on my hand to make it happen:

- I have [Nana Buruku] on my ready reagion with 0 [Orun] cards and 1 [Barrenness]
- I play 3 [Orun] cards on her.
- My prey plays [Barrenness] again.

Now, using the first argument, I would say that, for non-Orun cards played by other methuselahs, Nana is considered a 12-capacity vampire. When the controller of [Barrenness] tells me the actual capacity of the vampire, he tells me "10" capacity.
For me, nothing has changed, since my prey tells me the capacity of [Nana Buruku] has been "decreased to 10".
But, for some reason, I have this creeping feeling that [Nana Buruku] should be at least at 8 capacity again or, at most, a 10-capacity (and [Barrenness] would effectively increase my capacity, because it is a card that effectivelly changes the capacity of a vampire).
For this exact reason I did not played any other Orun on her. I wouldn't be able to tell what the hell would happen in this case.

I really do enjoy the Orun/Aye mechanics, but this aspect of the mechanic still eludes me.

Have a good one, ppl!

Only the superior effect checks the capacity of the target vampire and that is the only effect subject to Orun's "extra" capacity.

kschaefer wrote:

Only the superior effect checks the capacity of the target vampire and that is the only effect subject to Orun's "extra" capacity.

Could you explain it a bit more? Because I see the check when the text says "To a minimum of one".
Also, does that mean that the affected minion loses blood?

Assuming designer intent, Barrenness should ignore Orun on basic and only be affected on superior.
Anything else would be madness, no?
I gotta hand it to you: good question.

Emaranhado wrote:

kschaefer wrote:

Only the superior effect checks the capacity of the target vampire and that is the only effect subject to Orun's "extra" capacity.

Could you explain it a bit more? Because I see the check when the text says "To a minimum of one".
Also, does that mean that the affected minion loses blood?

That is a parenthetical and can be removed. It's reminder text that you cannot reduce a vampires capacity below 1. It doesn't cause a check, just reminds you of the minimum result possible.

kschaefer wrote:

Emaranhado wrote:

kschaefer wrote:

Only the superior effect checks the capacity of the target vampire and that is the only effect subject to Orun's "extra" capacity.

Could you explain it a bit more? Because I see the check when the text says "To a minimum of one".
Also, does that mean that the affected minion loses blood?

That is a parenthetical and can be removed. It's reminder text that you cannot reduce a vampires capacity below 1. It doesn't cause a check, just reminds you of the minimum result possible.

What about possible blood losses?
I mean, if it doesn't cause a check, on my mind that means that every object in play remains unchanged. That would not cause the capacity (actual or virtual) to be calculated (until the need for a check) and would not cause blood to be lost.
Sorry for being too insistent on it, but I when I look at it, I correlates it with receiving a Master Discipline, for example, where you the card tells you that your capacity increases and you have another slot for blood.
It does not require a check to apply the effect of the new capacity (or at least, I don't see how it does).