file Mata Hari + Call the Great Beast

23 Jul 2018 13:08 #89228 by Whisker
Assuming I have somehow increased Mata's capacity to 11, what happens when she plays Call the Great Beast? Confusion cause Mata's special sees her as Baali for playing the card, but not for other effects once the card is in play (e.g. can't add ritual counters).
1. Specifically does she burn or not?
2. If not, can rest of the card trigger or is it tied to 'burning this Baali'?

And please no snarky, I know this can be done much easier with Soul Gem and real Baali I'm just curious how this works from rules perspective.

card texts:

Call the Great Beast
[Action] Action
[Baali] Baali
[1 Blood]
+1 stealth action.
Put this card on the acting Baali and put X ritual counters on it, where X is the capacity of this Baali. This Baali may put a ritual counter on this card as a +1 stealth action. When this card has more than 10 ritual counters, burn this Baali and choose three Disciplines. This card becomes a unique clanless independent infernal vampire with 9 capacity, 4 strength and 3 bleed. The Great Beast has the chosen three Disciplines at superior. Move 9 blood to him from the blood bank. The Great Beast can enter combat with any ready minion controlled by another Methuselah as a (D) action and can prevent 1 damage each combat.

Mata Hari
[aus]
[for]
[qui]
[CHI]
[OBF]
[Ravnos] Ravnos
Capacity: 7
Group: 4
Independent. Red List: Mata Hari has 2 votes (titled). You and she may play cards that require a sect and/or clan as if she were of that required sect and/or clan.

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23 Jul 2018 14:02 #89230 by cordovader
IMHO she burns like an ordinary Baali since she’s considered as such till the action is concluded.

Check the effects of Ahrimane Protectorate.

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23 Jul 2018 14:03 #89231 by Thin_Blood
Myself, I would say that Mata Hari can add ritual counters to Call the Great Beast as the card theoretically references that the Baali that put it into play is the one that can add the ritual counters. This also means that once it has 10 ritual counters and becomes The Great Beast that Mata Hari does indeed burn.

So...you need not bring her capacity to 11 to play the card as she can put ritual counters on it. The idea was pretty solid though that you bring her capacity to 11, play Call the Great Beast and Mata Hari would not burn.

I could be wrong though. Also I have no authority over rules calls so my reply is purely discussion related.

“I don’t have cross table buddies. I have a prey I haven’t gotten around to yet.” — Shockwave (English VtES Player).

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23 Jul 2018 15:10 #89237 by DJHedgehog
Based on the card texts, I would say that she cannot add counters and cannot burn to create the great beast. If I were writing CtGB and specified Baali, it would be to avoid loopholes like this.

Mata can play cards, but she does not meet the requirements of being Baali for the purposes of the card text "check".

This is my interpretation, and will most likely not be correct :P

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23 Jul 2018 17:48 #89243 by Kushiel

Thin_Blood wrote: Myself, I would say that Mata Hari can add ritual counters to Call the Great Beast as the card theoretically references that the Baali that put it into play is the one that can add the ritual counters.


That second part is correct, which is why the first one isn't. Since adding counters requires the Baali who put it into play, and Mata Hari ceases to be that Baali as soon as the action resolves, she can't add counters to it.

Thin_Blood wrote: This also means that once it has 10 ritual counters and becomes The Great Beast that Mata Hari does indeed burn.


Well, 11 counters, but otherwise correct.

Here's what LSJ had to say about this topic, though he didn't answer the question about adding counters to the card after it's in play:
LSJ on Mata Hari playing Call the Great Beast: newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Rec/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/2005-11/msg01470.html

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23 Jul 2018 18:17 #89244 by Ankha
With 11 counters, LSJ's ruling stands: Mata Hari plays the card as a Baali, and burns because she is capacity 11 during the resolution of the action.

If she is less than 11, the card comes with counters, but she won't be able to add counters since she plays the card as a Baali, but is unable to use it as a Baali.

Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

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