file Vlad Tepes Anarch Secession

27 Jul 2018 10:12 #89395 by Ratadin
Replied by Ratadin on topic Vlad Tepes Anarch Secession

kschaefer wrote: No, he does not become Anarch. He can still use the Baron title because of his special text "use" ability.


I don't think this is how that ability works. If you are only talking about "playing or using cards as a Baron", yes, he can, but he could even before playing the Fee Stakes. He does not get the 2 votes, though. This is because even though he can "use" the Fee Stake, what "usign" the Fee Stake does is giving you a title, but after that the title will work following titles rules, in this case, the title would be placed on him, but would be inactive because he isn't an anarch anymore, and so cannot employ an anarch title.

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27 Jul 2018 11:07 #89396 by jamesatzephyr

Killiam wrote: Does he count as untitled while the title is inert?


Any vampire with an inert title is considered untitled for all game purposes, except the two I mentioned - receiving a new title (the inert one goes away), and contesting (you yield instead of contesting).

Killiam wrote: If you are targeted by Eat the Rich, do you lose 1 pool or 4?


An interesting question. If he can 'use' a title card which requires a sect to activate the title whenever he feels like it, he could be either, your choice. This could lead to Excitement(tm) if he's allowed to use it right up to the end of the tallying of votes (so he can vote) and then untitled for applying the effects of the successful referendum.

(This sort of shenanigans is why I'm a little dubious about him being able to use titles in this way, but it seems potentially legit, card-text-wise.)

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27 Jul 2018 13:59 - 27 Jul 2018 21:36 #89400 by jamesatzephyr

Ratadin wrote: This is because even though he can "use" the Fee Stake, what "usign" the Fee Stake does is giving you a title, but after that the title will work following titles rules, in this case, the title would be placed on him, but would be inactive because he isn't an anarch anymore, and so cannot employ an anarch title.


Your assumption as to what "using" the Fee Stake means isn't obviously true. I mean, it could be ruled to work like that, but from the existing rulings on Vlad Tepes, it isn't immediately obvious that it couldn't work with him turning it on and off at will. Other sect-based always-on card-in-play effects with him can work, which we know from the ruling on Abbot. [FZD 20150306] And we know that the fate of the title is linked to the fate of the Title card. If the card goes away, so does the title. [LSJ 20100812] (*) So it's not obvious that Fee Stake doesn't function like Abbot.




(*) This is hard to make happen - removing the card first, rather than the title - but not impossible. Cleansing Ritual can do it, which might be relevant if you have temporary control of someone with an annoying title card. Malkavian Time Auction could be invoked to do mental things involving transferring control of the title card, then ousting the controller. Regent could possibly do it if the vampire it was on is stolen, because master cards are by default controlled by the player of the card, not the controller of the minion it's on.
Last edit: 27 Jul 2018 21:36 by jamesatzephyr.

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28 Jul 2018 13:44 #89417 by Nac
Replied by Nac on topic Vlad Tepes Anarch Secession

kschaefer wrote:

Killiam wrote: 1. Can Vlad Tepes, as-is (untitled Independent), play Anarch Secession? If no, why not?

Yes.

Killiam wrote: 2. If yes to 1, is he considered to be spoofing a specific title when he Secedes, or a non-specific title?

Yes, you pick.

Killiam wrote: 3. If it’s a specific title, can he choose the title he spoofs? For instance, can he play Anarch Secession spoofing the Prince of Seattle to become the Baron of Seattle?

Yes. He can spoof any city as a Prince or Archbishop even one not used in the game, such as Denver. If he does, he will become the Baron of <city> for the purposes of interacting with Anarch Secession for the remainder of the game.

Followup: If Vlad plays a Fee Stake while he is not an anarch, does he become anarch as a result of becoming a Baron? If not, does he get to keep and use the Baron title whilst not being anarch (as-an-anarch)?

No, he does not become Anarch. He can still use the Baron title because of his special text "use" ability.


Is there a source or confirmation for that "you pick city you want"?

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28 Jul 2018 14:21 #89418 by jamesatzephyr

Nac wrote: Is there a source or confirmation for that "you pick city you want"?


[FZD 20150506]

Pascal wrote:

jamesatzephyr wrote: Also, what happens if Vlad plays Anarch Secession? Can he choose to be a Prince/Archbishop of somewhere for the purposes of playing the card, and thus become the Baron of somewhere?


Yes.


The city doesn't have to already exist in the game: [FZD 20150507

Pascal Bertrand wrote:

jamesatzephyr wrote:

blackday wrote: So with the anarch secession ruled by Pascal mean Vlad can play one and become a baron of any city? Even a made up one?


Seems so. There's no list of 'allowed' cities anywhere in the game's rules.

Correct.

The following user(s) said Thank You: Killiam, Nac

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28 Jul 2018 14:43 #89420 by jamesatzephyr

kschaefer wrote:

Followup: If Vlad plays a Fee Stake while he is not an anarch, does he become anarch as a result of becoming a Baron? If not, does he get to keep and use the Baron title whilst not being anarch (as-an-anarch)?

No, he does not become Anarch. He can still use the Baron title because of his special text "use" ability.


Re-reading his card text and putting my brain in gear, that's more interesting.

Anarch Secession requires a title - I'll go with Prince. Requiring a sect-based title also implicitly requires the sect, so it requires Camarilla.
Vlad plays the card and becomes Baron of Melbourne. The title card goes in play on him.
Vlad says: "Vlad can play and use cards requiring a title or a sect as if he had that title or were of that sect."
Vlad is now not an Anarch, so the title is inert.
Vlad goes to use the Anarch Secession that is in play on him. He uses it as if he had that title or were of that sect. The title he used was Prince, the sect he (implicitly) used was Camarilla.

Some options now come to mind:

If Anarch Secession+Vlad remembers that that's what he played it as, then when he uses it as if he had "that title" or "that sect" then it sees him as Camarilla, not Anarch. It potentially also sees him as gaining a Prince title temporarily ("as if" he had that title), and so Anarch Secession might go on to burn itself to get rid of the inert Baron.

Alternatively, Anarch Secession might not remember that it was played as Prince + implicitly Camarilla, but might let you re-pick a sect and a title from the options available on the card. Anarch Secession doesn't not require the Anarch sect, nor can you play it as a Baron because it requires you not to be an anarch, and Baron implicitly requires anarchy (like Prince implicitly requires Camarilla. So using any of the titles or sects that Anarch Secession uses as a requirement, none of them would activate the Baron title. And if you attempt to use it while it sees him as being a Prince, then as above, it might potentially see him as gaining a title (Prince) and so burn itself to get rid of the inert Baron.

.

Many of the shenanigans of having the title turn on and off might still be possible with (some) other Title cards that require a sect that matches the sect of the title bestowed. e.g. a Praxis Seizure.

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