playing cards as a vampire

Question: Does an ally that can play cards "as a vampire" count as a vampire for the purposes of those cards? In other words:
Can Nephren-ka untap itself with a funeral wake?

Nephren-Ka
Unique mummy with 5 life. 2 strength, 0 bleed.
Nephren-Ka may enter combat with a ready minion as a action. He may prevent 1 non-aggravated damage each combat. He may play cards that require basic Necromancy [nec] as a vampire. If he is burned, shuffle him into his owner's library.

Funeral Wake
[Reaction] Reaction
[Necromancy] Necromancy
[1 Blood]
Usable by a tapped vampire.
[nec] Untap a mummy, wraith, or zombie ally you control.
[NEC] Untap up to two mummy, wraith, or zombie allies you control.

Bloodartist wrote:

Question: Does an ally that can play cards "as a vampire" count as a vampire for the purposes of those cards? In other words:
Can Nephren-ka untap itself with a funeral wake?

Nephren-Ka
Unique mummy with 5 life. 2 strength, 0 bleed.
Nephren-Ka may enter combat with a ready minion as a action. He may prevent 1 non-aggravated damage each combat. He may play cards that require basic Necromancy [nec] as a vampire. If he is burned, shuffle him into his owner's library.

Funeral Wake
[Reaction] Reaction
[Necromancy] Necromancy
[1 Blood]
Usable by a tapped vampire.
[nec] Untap a mummy, wraith, or zombie ally you control.
[NEC] Untap up to two mummy, wraith, or zombie allies you control.

Asked the same question because I love Nephren-ka.

No.

When hes playing the card as a vampire, he is not a valid target for untap, the explanation I was given is hes a vampire at the time of playing so cannot target himself, but he can untap Aman the devourer or a Reanimated corpse, just not himself if hes playing it.

ReverendRevolver wrote:

Asked the same question because I love Nephren-ka.

No.

When hes playing the card as a vampire, he is not a valid target for untap, the explanation I was given is hes a vampire at the time of playing so cannot target himself, but he can untap Aman the devourer or a Reanimated corpse, just not himself if hes playing it.

Hmm. While I half-expected the answer to be no, I didn't expect this reason.

Is there a rule somewhere that prevents a card from being both an ally and a vampire at the same time? Ie. Where does the exclusivity come from? Since we're already bending the rules a bit with an ally that can "play cards as a vampire" while not being a vampire, it wouldn't be a terribly big departure to have Nephren-ka count as both at the same time. Since it, after all, is an ally and merely plays cards as a vampire. I have a feeling that there is some unfortunate common sense present.. Gaming card rulings rarely work with common sense

Bloodartist wrote:

Is there a rule somewhere that prevents a card from being both an ally and a vampire at the same time?

That's not the point - the ally is never actually a vampire, they're just playing it "as a" vampire. There's never a point at which they're both things.

The consistent rulings on this are then that the ally is treated "as a" vampire for all parts of the play, resolution and lingering effect of that card (but not card-in-play effects), and not an ally.

[LSJ 20020507]

LSJ wrote:

Allies are never vampires.

Allies that can play cards as vampires may play cards as vampires.
If, as a vampire, the ally plays a card whose resolution has some
effect on him, then that effect treats him as a vampire, since as
a vampire is how he plays it.

I don't know if it was ever explicitly stated, but this has the advantage of making the card interactions much more predictable. Since allies are not vampires and vampires are not allies, you have to worry much, much less about how cards might interact if a minion is both vampire and ally at the same time - they work for "as a vampire" allies the same way as they work for vampires.

jamesatzephyr wrote:

Bloodartist wrote:

Is there a rule somewhere that prevents a card from being both an ally and a vampire at the same time?

That's not the point - the ally is never actually a vampire, they're just playing it "as a" vampire. There's never a point at which they're both things.

The consistent rulings on this are then that the ally is treated "as a" vampire for all parts of the play, resolution and lingering effect of that card (but not card-in-play effects), and not an ally.

[LSJ 20020507]

LSJ wrote:

Allies are never vampires.

Allies that can play cards as vampires may play cards as vampires.
If, as a vampire, the ally plays a card whose resolution has some
effect on him, then that effect treats him as a vampire, since as
a vampire is how he plays it.

I don't know if it was ever explicitly stated, but this has the advantage of making the card interactions much more predictable. Since allies are not vampires and vampires are not allies, you have to worry much, much less about how cards might interact if a minion is both vampire and ally at the same time - they work for "as a vampire" allies the same way as they work for vampires.

Unless of course someone blocks a Grandest Trick bleed with Samuel Haight or Talaq, and then plays blood to water at . At which point I'll wonder if I'm dreaming, because blood to water was the most playable card of the 4 mentioned, making it almost as probable Becommi g of Ennoia gets played as this scenario happens.

Good thing some cards that could cause confusion suck too much to play.

ReverendRevolver wrote:

jamesatzephyr wrote:

I don't know if it was ever explicitly stated, but this has the advantage of making the card interactions much more predictable. Since allies are not vampires and vampires are not allies, you have to worry much, much less about how cards might interact if a minion is both vampire and ally at the same time - they work for "as a vampire" allies the same way as they work for vampires.

Unless of course someone blocks a Grandest Trick bleed with Samuel Haight or Talaq, and then plays blood to water at .

A vampire using the Grandest Trick works in a similar way to playing "as a vampire" - but more extended, because it can interact with other cards etc., whereas ordinary playing "as a <whatever>" effects only work on the card being played.

Grandest Trick does not turn the vampire into an ally. It is treated "as a mortal ally", by card text. For the duration of the effect, it's not treated as a vampire - which is why, for example, a vampire with a title cannot use the title while the Grandest Trick is in effect [LSJ 20011203] , because allies don't have titles.