file Forcing Methuselah to play cards you cannot play

05 Sep 2018 22:58 - 05 Sep 2018 23:09 #90452 by Khalid1988
Is there any ruling on if a card is played, but actually couldn't have, then the Methuselah is forced to choose another target? I was unable to find a Rules Team Ruling or a rulebook entry providing a valid reason why the effect of the card would need to be changed if played wrong.

Example case:

Ingrid Rossler plays a Parity Shift. Omaya tries to block and eventually plays an Eyes of Argus for +2 intercept on inferior. Another Methuselah notices after the card is played that Parity Shift is in fact an undirected action. Omaya tries to cancel the playing of card because playing it for intended effect wasn't allowed, but Ingrid Rossler says that the card should be played on superior as a wake on Devin Bisley instead.

Name: Devin Bisley
[Sabbat:V, SW:U/PT]
Cardtype: Vampire
Clan: Tzimisce
Group: 2
Capacity: 5
Discipline: vic ANI AUS
Sabbat.
Artist: Karl Waller

Name: Ingrid Rossler
[DS:V, Anarchs:PG]
Cardtype: Vampire
Clan: Gangrel
Group: 2
Capacity: 9
Discipline: dom ANI FOR PRO
Camarilla Prince of Geneva: If Ingrid is ready at the start of your influence phase, you get +2 transfers.
Artist: Ron Spencer

Name: Omaya
[SW:C]
Cardtype: Vampire
Clan: Gangrel antitribu
Group: 2
Capacity: 7
Discipline: pro ANI AUS FOR
Sabbat: Omaya may prevent one damage each combat.
Artist: Mike Danza

Name: Eyes of Argus
[KoT:C/B2, HttB:PSal3, Anthology:4]
Cardtype: Reaction
Discipline: Auspex
[aus] Only usable during a (D) action against you (or a card you control). +2 intercept.
[AUS] Only usable by a locked vampire. This vampire wakes (they can play reaction cards and attempt to block even though locked until the current action is concluded).
Artist: Heather Kreiter

Edit: Current general rulings on Playing cards

Playing Cards:

If a card targets (chooses, selects, is played on, etc.) some target, then the card can only be played if an appropriate target is available. Examples: Strike: Steal/Destroy Equipment/Weapon cannot be used if the opposing minion doesn't have a suitable Equipment/Weapon to be destroyed/stolen. [RTR 19980928] [LSJ 20030408]ÂÂ "Stealing blood" effects target a minion, not its blood (or life) counters.
You cannot play a card whose cost cannot be paid. If, between the time a action card is played (or an action is attempted) and the time the cost of the action is paid, you no longer can pay the cost, then you pay as much as you can and the card is burned without effect (or the action has no effect). [TOM 19960514] [RTR 20010710]
A card can be canceled "as it is played" (with Sudden Reversal, Direct Intervention, etc.) only as it is played. The only cards that can be played "as" another one is played are the ones the players have in their hands at the time. You cannot use the Barrens after a master card is played, for example, to attempt to draw into a Sudden Reversal to cancel it. [RTR 20040501]
An effect that allows a minion to play a card that requires a Discipline he doesn't have (e.g., Infernal Familiar, Ian Forestal) can be used to meet one (not both) of the normal Discipline requirements of a multi-Discipline card. [LSJ 20011217]


Prince of Tikkurila, known as Teryn in Lackey CCG
File Attachment:
Last edit: 05 Sep 2018 23:09 by Khalid1988. Reason: Added a quote from General Rulings regarding playing cards

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
06 Sep 2018 02:08 #90453 by ReverendRevolver
In a tournament, it's a warning. You showed a part of your hand in a manner not part of a card effect requiring you to.
Making Devin play it would be up to.a judge, because your example has that minion, and under certain circumstances (about to be ousted if you dont draw intercept) cycling the card may be optimal.

I've played Kiss of Ra at inferior during a tournament. Started as an oops, but the Ravnos blocking me was at 3 blood, and week of nightmares was in play, about to pop. So, she went to torpor eventually, and the player I did it to (Cashdollar) still brings it up because, you know, I played Kiss of Ra at :for:

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
06 Sep 2018 06:14 #90454 by beslin igor

ReverendRevolver wrote: In a tournament, it's a warning. You showed a part of your hand in a manner not part of a card effect requiring you to.
Making Devin play it would be up to.a judge, because your example has that minion, and under certain circumstances (about to be ousted if you dont draw intercept) cycling the card may be optimal.

I've played Kiss of Ra at inferior during a tournament. Started as an oops, but the Ravnos blocking me was at 3 blood, and week of nightmares was in play, about to pop. So, she went to torpor eventually, and the player I did it to (Cashdollar) still brings it up because, you know, I played Kiss of Ra at :for:


Is not problem if him can cycling or not,is problem so him play card by one minion and replace card,after that we will see Omaya cant play eyes,so what now? him can take card back in hand or if posible must chose other target in play(in this example Devin)?

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
06 Sep 2018 09:17 - 06 Sep 2018 09:19 #90458 by Ankha
In this situation: Devin Bisley played the card explicitly to get +2 intercept ("I play Eyes of Argus at inferior for +2 intercept") or implicitly ("+2 intercept" => the card is played at inferior)
Since it is not legal, the juge must proceed to a rollback. Considering that Omaya could play the card at a different level is not a rollback.
The player should get a penalty following the penalty guide.

Now, in a different situation where Devin is locked. Devin's controller plays a On the Qui Vive, then plays Eyes of Argus saying "Eyes of Argus". In that case, Devin's controller is making a mistake since he doesn't indicate whether the card is played at inferior at superior. Since Devin can play it only at superior, the judge shouldn't allow a rollback.
If Devin's controller, under On the Qui Vive, had said "+2 intercept" while playing Eyes of Argus, then the judge must proceed to a rollback since the card was implicitly played at inferior, which is not legal.

Of course, again, the player should get a penalty following the penalty guide either for not properly announcing the level of the cards he plays, or because he's doing illegal things.

In the event the player has replaced the card and the judge must rollback, the judge must estimate whether that knowledge gives an important advantage to the player (eg., the next card is a Delaying Tactics, cycling an useless wake allows to draw it), or not, and take measures (eg., shuffling the library)

Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Last edit: 06 Sep 2018 09:19 by Ankha.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Khalid1988

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
06 Sep 2018 15:30 #90463 by Orpheus
Ok, so :

- first, it was on Lackey, so if I recall you just played the card without announcing anything. Sure you meant it as a +2 Intercept, but that isn't said when the card hits the table. So in that case what would you do Ankha ?

- depending on the cards, the annoucements, the judge etc, it would be ruled either way, and I've seen it ruled differently in tournaments. I think we really need clearer guidelines for tournament rules.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
06 Sep 2018 17:02 #90465 by Ankha

Orpheus wrote: Ok, so :

- first, it was on Lackey, so if I recall you just played the card without announcing anything. Sure you meant it as a +2 Intercept, but that isn't said when the card hits the table. So in that case what would you do Ankha ?

Even on Lackey, when you play a card, you have to tell what you do with it, for instance "+2 intercept", and who plays it.
Otherwise, players must ask how the card is played/who plays it. Then you rule in consequence.

Orpheus wrote: - depending on the cards, the annoucements, the judge etc, it would be ruled either way, and I've seen it ruled differently in tournaments. I think we really need clearer guidelines for tournament rules.

Indeed.

Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
Moderators: AnkhaKraus
Time to create page: 1.517 seconds
Powered by Kunena Forum