file Does Derange by MataHari turn vampires into Ravnos?

13 Sep 2018 14:33 #90591 by XZealot
Does Derange by Mata Hari turn vampires into Ravnos?

Name: Mata Hari
[KMW:U/PAn]
Cardtype: Vampire
Clan: Ravnos
Group: 4
Capacity: 7
Discipline: aus for qui CHI OBF
Independent. Red List: Mata Hari has 2 votes (titled). You and she may play cards that require a sect and/or clan as if she were of that required sect and/or clan.

Derange
[Action] Action

[Malkavian] Malkavian
[Malkavian antitribu] Malkavian antitribu

This is a +1 stealth action.
(D) Put this card on a younger vampire. The vampire with this card is considered to be the same clan as the acting vampire. The vampire with this card does not untap as normal. During his or her controller's untap phase, he or she may burn 1 blood to untap. The vampire with this card may move it to another vampire as a (D) action. This card cannot be placed on a Malkavian or Malkavian antitribu.

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13 Sep 2018 15:19 #90592 by Snodig
Yes.
Mata Hari may meet the requirements of clan-specific cards, but she is still Ravnos for the purpose of any effects of that card.

Psychos do not explode when sunlight hits them, I don't give a fuck how crazy they are!

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13 Sep 2018 16:15 #90596 by Kushiel

Snodig wrote: Yes.
Mata Hari may meet the requirements of clan-specific cards, but she is still Ravnos for the purpose of any effects of that card.


No, any card that she plays that requires a trait that she doesn't inherently possess sees her as that trait for the purposes of playing that card. So if she plays Derange, she either plays it as a Malk and turns the target into a Malk, or plays it as a !Malk and turns the target into a !Malk.

www.tomshardware.com/forum/74341-13-about-mata-hari
(Sorry about the crappy link - couldn't find a cleaner one. Search the page for "Derange" to skip through irrelevant conversations.)
The following user(s) said Thank You: Snodig

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13 Sep 2018 17:23 #90598 by Snodig
Really? I must be thinking of some other case.
Probably equipment effects, titles and so on.

Psychos do not explode when sunlight hits them, I don't give a fuck how crazy they are!

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13 Sep 2018 19:52 - 13 Sep 2018 19:52 #90606 by jamesatzephyr

Snodig wrote: Yes.
Mata Hari may meet the requirements of clan-specific cards, but she is still Ravnos for the purpose of any effects of that card.


No.

When you play a card "as a" clan/sect/vampire/whatever, that card sees you as being that clan/sect/vampire/whatever for three purposes:

1) Playing the card
2) Resolving the card
3) Lingering effect not based on the card in play (important for, e.g., Raking Talons)

The thing about Derange is that it sets what clan you become when it resolves. If a plain vanilla Malkavian plays it, you become Malkavian. If that Malkavian later plays Clan Impersonation and becomes Lasombra, the Deranged vampire doesn't become Lasombra - it isn't tracking the vampire's clan. So it must be being set when Derange is played/resolves.

When Derange resolves, it sees Mata Hari as a Malkavian (or !Malkavian), so that's what it sets the Deranged vampire's clan to.

This is different from the fourth case, which is a permanent effect being given to e.g. "The Salubri with this card has +1 bleed" or "The attached Toreador..." or "Put this card on this acting vampire. This Sabbat vampire...". That's an effect from a card in play, which sees the minion it's on for what it really is. If it's on a normal Salubri who stops being Salubri, the effect doesn't apply until it starts being a Salubri again.
Last edit: 13 Sep 2018 19:52 by jamesatzephyr.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Snodig

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13 Sep 2018 20:14 - 13 Sep 2018 20:17 #90608 by Kushiel
That's how it works for all instances of a vampire being treated as if they have a trait that they lack, with the sometimes exception of Vlad Tepes, because he's got extra text making him extra weird.

The only case that I can think of that you might be referring to is the requirement on equipment, which only matters when it's brought into play, unless the card has text saying otherwise. For example, Guarded Rubrics can be used by any vampire once it's in play (and can be equipped by a non-Black Hand vampire who takes the action to equip it from another vampire), but Erebus Mask is useless to any non-Harbinger vampire who has it.

EDIT: For clarity's sake, I wrote this while James was posting his post - mine was supposed to be a reply to Snodig, not James.
Last edit: 13 Sep 2018 20:17 by Kushiel.

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