file Order of draw and replace for Concealed Weapon under Infernal Pursuit

24 Sep 2018 17:40 #90739 by Killiam
Consider this situation:

You have a vampire in combat with superior Celerity, it is still pre-maneuver and so far your vamp has played 5 Infernal Pursuits. Now she plays Concealed Weapon to bring out a gun.

There are 8 things that happen with your hand, and I want to know the order in which they should be resolved:

A. Play the Concealed Weapon (this is obviously first)
B. Replace Concealed Weapon
C. Draw an additional 5 cards for replacing the CW
D. Discard down to hand size from the extra draws off CW
E. Put the gun in play from your hand
F. Replace the gun
G. Draw an additional 5 cards for replacing the gun
H. Discard down to hand size from the extra draws off the gun

I have seen this handled differently by different players, and some ways are more advantageous than others with respect to information that the player gets before deciding what to discard.

The most advantageous for the player would be to drop both the CW and the gun at the same time, draw 12 cards and then discard 10 (AEBFCGDH) —— and I have seen it done that way, but I am not sure that’s legal.

I currently have a deck that does just this, and I want to make sure that I order my draws and discards correctly.

Thanks much!
-Bill Troxel

Infernal Pursuit
[Combat] Combat
[cel] Press.
[CEL] For the remainder of the combat, each time you replace a card (including when you draw to replace this card), draw an additional card and discard down to your hand size.

Concealed Weapon
[Combat] Combat
Only usable before range is determined.
This minion equips with a non-unique weapon card from your hand (requirements and cost apply as normal). The weapon cannot cost 3 or more pool or inflict (with a regular strike) aggravated damage or 4 or more damage.

-Killiam
(Bill Troxel)
"How did some slip of a girly boy from communist East Berlin become the internationally ignored song stylist barely standing before you?" -Hedwig Robinson

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24 Sep 2018 18:31 - 24 Sep 2018 18:34 #90742 by Killiam
Oh, and a quick follow up question.

I'm pretty sure that answer will be NO, but might as well ask while it's fresh in mind:

Does drawing back up to your hand size after using Nicomedes' ability count as replacing cards for the purposes of Infernal Pursuit?

Nicomedes
[aus] [for] [nec] [vic]
Harbinger of Skulls
Capacity: 5
Group: 4
Sabbat. Black Hand: Once each of your turns, Nicomedes may burn a blood to shuffle your hand into your library (draw afterward).

(edit: had somehow omitted the word "ability")

-Killiam
(Bill Troxel)
"How did some slip of a girly boy from communist East Berlin become the internationally ignored song stylist barely standing before you?" -Hedwig Robinson

Last edit: 24 Sep 2018 18:34 by Killiam.

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24 Sep 2018 18:50 - 24 Sep 2018 18:57 #90743 by cmdrKEEN
Afaik and as it is played here, it is like this. When you play Concealed Weapon you have to assign a target (a weapon in your hand) when you play it, before you replace Concealed Weapon. To show all players at the table, that you had the weapon in your hand when you played CW, the target weapon is put on the table facedown, while still considered in your hand. Then you replace CW with 6 cards, discard down and wait for DIs or something similar to be played. If CW is successful you turn the weapon faceup and replace it in the same way. This way it is made sure, that you didnt just play CW and hoped to draw into a weapon, that you can then play.
Last edit: 24 Sep 2018 18:57 by cmdrKEEN.
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24 Sep 2018 21:17 - 24 Sep 2018 21:23 #90744 by Bloodartist

Killiam wrote:
A. Play the Concealed Weapon (this is obviously first)
B. Replace Concealed Weapon
C. Draw an additional 5 cards for replacing the CW
D. Discard down to hand size from the extra draws off CW
E. Put the gun in play from your hand
F. Replace the gun
G. Draw an additional 5 cards for replacing the gun
H. Discard down to hand size from the extra draws off the gun

I have seen this handled differently by different players, and some ways are more advantageous than others with respect to information that the player gets before deciding what to discard.


You play both the concealed weapon and the weapon it equips together, before you replace either. The weapon has to be in your hand when you play concealed weapon. Also the window to direct intervention concealed weapon is before you replace either.

After that its replace as normal and discard as normal. Ie. Play Concealed weapon+gun; draw 12, discard down to handsize.

ps. I wish there was a FAQ for card rulings.. So people could check it for often-asked questions about how cards work.

Killiam wrote: Does drawing back up to your hand size after using Nicomedes' ability count as replacing cards for the purposes of Infernal Pursuit?


If you activate the ability during combat, I don't see why it wouldn't count.

"Do you believe in the power of the night?
If you want to go with me, refuse the light"
- Blutengel, Soultaker
Last edit: 24 Sep 2018 21:23 by Bloodartist.

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24 Sep 2018 22:46 - 24 Sep 2018 22:48 #90746 by kschaefer

Bloodartist wrote: You play both the concealed weapon and the weapon it equips together, before you replace either.

This is not correct.

You play the Concealed Weapon and *declare* the weapon that you will conceal before replacement is drawn. Then cancel effects occurs (if any). Afterward you replace the Concealed Weapon. Next, you play the named weapon from your hand. This cannot be canceled. You draw to replace it.

You must have the weapon in your hand to play the Concealed Weapon, but each card is played separately. You may ask a judge to confirm that a legal play is happening (that they have a card in hand before replacement), but technically the player cannot show you this card until they have replaced the Concealed Weapon.

As a parallel consider Shattering Crescendo at superior Melpominee, which requires you to discard a second Shattering Crescendo. You must have the second SC in hand to begin the action, but it stays in your hand. If the card is lost during the action Raptor/Siren's Lure and there is no SC to discard the action will fizzle, but it was legal when it began. The action here is very useful to show that each part of the play and play a second card with it are drawn separately because they are separated by many steps before resolution. In the case of Concealed Weapon, a combat card, the only step separating it from the target weapon is cancelation. Nevertheless the analogy holds and the cards are played and replaced separately.
Last edit: 24 Sep 2018 22:48 by kschaefer. Reason: Grammar fix.
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25 Sep 2018 08:33 #90749 by Ankha

kschaefer wrote:

Bloodartist wrote: You play both the concealed weapon and the weapon it equips together, before you replace either.

This is not correct.

You play the Concealed Weapon and *declare* the weapon that you will conceal before replacement is drawn. Then cancel effects occurs (if any). Afterward you replace the Concealed Weapon. Next, you play the named weapon from your hand. This cannot be canceled. You draw to replace it.

You must have the weapon in your hand to play the Concealed Weapon, but each card is played separately. You may ask a judge to confirm that a legal play is happening (that they have a card in hand before replacement), but technically the player cannot show you this card until they have replaced the Concealed Weapon.

Correct.
So to answer the OP question, you will draw 6 cards after playing the CW, then 6 cards after playing the weapon.

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