file Continuing an Action After Stealing with Venenation

29 Sep 2018 00:10 - 29 Sep 2018 00:14 #90827 by Killiam
Scenario:

Nakhthorheb (who has become an Anarch) has employed the Crypt’s Sons. While attempting an action, he is blocked by an Emerald Legionnaire (or any other ally with a recruit cost of 1 pool or less). Nakhthorheb plays Venenation and takes control of the blocking ally.

Question 1: May Nakhthorheb now use the Crypt’s Sons’ text and continue the action as if unblocked? (I'm thinking not, because the combat was already canceled and CS text begins with canceling combat.)

Question 2: Instead of using Crypt’s Sons, may Nakhthorheb now use Momentary Delay to continue the action?

Question 3: Instead, assuming Nakhthorheb possessed the appropriate discipline, could he instead play Phantom Speaker at Melpominee or Psychomachia at Daimoinon at that point to continue the action?

Question 4: Instead, could a supporting vampire now play Mask of 1,000 Faces to continue the action (after gaining control of the ally)?

Thanks Much!
-Bill Troxel

Nakhthorheb
[OBF] PRE [SER]
[Follower of Set]
Capacity: 10, Group: 4
Independent: Nakhthorheb may untap once during each of your minion phases. Minions with your corruption counters cannot block him. +1 strength.

Venenation
Action Modifier, Serpentis
[1 Blood]
Only usable when this acting minion is blocked, before combat begins.
[ser] Place a corruption counter on the blocking minion. If the number of your corruption counters on the minion equals or exceeds the blood capacity of that vampire or the cost of that ally, you may burn all of your corruption counters on that minion to gain control of him or her (combat is canceled). Otherwise, combat occurs as normal.
[SER] As above, but the cost of this card is reduced by 1 blood.

Crypt's Sons
[Retainer] [1 Pool]
Unique mortal with 3 life. Requires an anarch.
Whenever this anarch is blocked, he or she may burn a life from the Sons to cancel combat and continue the action as if unblocked. The Sons inflict 1R damage each round of combat during normal strike resolution.

Momentary Delay
[Action Modifier]
Requires a vampire with capacity 7 or more.
Only usable at the end of an action blocked by an ally or a vampire of capacity 5 or less (after any combats). Not usable if more than one round of combat has occurred nor if this vampire has lost 3 or more blood this action or ended combat before the press step. The action continues as if unblocked.

Phantom Speaker
[Action Modifier] [Melpominee] [Chimerstry]
Only usable when this acting vampire is blocked (before tapping the blocker).
[chi] Cancel combat and do not tap the blocking minion.
[mel] The block fails and the action continues. The blocking minion cannot attempt to block this action again. Not usable if the blocking minion is an older vampire.
[MEL] As [mel] above, and if this action is successful, tap that blocking minion.

Psychomachia
[Action Modifier], [Daimoinon] Presence
[1 Blood]
Only usable when an ally or younger vampire successfully blocks before tapping the blocker.
pre Cancel the current action and untap this acting vampire. The blocking minion is not tapped.
[dai] The block fails, and the action continues. The blocking minion cannot attempt to block this action again.
[DAI] As [dai] above, and the blocking minion takes 1 damage (damage not preventable).

Mask of a Thousand Faces
[Action Modifier], [Obfuscate]
[obf] Only usable by a ready, untapped vampire other than the acting minion who is capable of performing the action. Not usable if any action modifiers or other effects have been used that could not have been used if this vampire were the acting vampire. Untap the acting minion and tap this vampire instead. The action continues with this vampire as the acting minion.
[OBF] As above, with +1 stealth.

-Killiam
(Bill Troxel)
"How did some slip of a girly boy from communist East Berlin become the internationally ignored song stylist barely standing before you?" -Hedwig Robinson

Last edit: 29 Sep 2018 00:14 by Killiam. Reason: EDIT: Removed square brackets from 'PRE' and 'pre' because they were causing weird, nesting-type formatting.

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29 Sep 2018 09:46 #90830 by Klaital
Momentary Delay should work, and Mask might, but the rest all talk about canceling the block which is not happening anymore after the Venenation.

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01 Oct 2018 12:17 #90874 by ReverendRevolver

Klaital wrote: Momentary Delay should work, and Mask might, but the rest all talk about canceling the block which is not happening anymore after the Venenation.


Does canceling combat not count as ending it before the press step?
I always assumed MD wasn't great because mirror walk and agg poke or flamethrowers didn't work.

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01 Oct 2018 14:46 #90880 by Klaital
Agg damage works just fine with momentary delay, your vampire isn't 'ending combat' by sending the opposing vampire to torpor, it is the opposing vampire that ends the combat by going to torpor, it basically just means that you can't use it if you s:ce yourself.

And canceling combat is not the same as ending combat before press step, if the combat never started in the first place you couldn't have ended it.

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03 Oct 2018 15:52 #90941 by Killiam
Is there a way to flag a member of the rules team to answer the four questions I posed in my original post for this thread? I don't feel any closer to getting a definitive, binding ruling.

-Killiam
(Bill Troxel)
"How did some slip of a girly boy from communist East Berlin become the internationally ignored song stylist barely standing before you?" -Hedwig Robinson

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03 Oct 2018 17:10 #90942 by Ankha

Killiam wrote: Question 1: May Nakhthorheb now use the Crypt’s Sons’ text and continue the action as if unblocked? (I'm thinking not, because the combat was already canceled and CS text begins with canceling combat.)

He can, the same way he could play Bear-Baiting then continue the action.
groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/tROpvfFdgBI/qDwA9JTPMxgJ

Killiam wrote: Question 2: Instead of using Crypt’s Sons, may Nakhthorheb now use Momentary Delay to continue the action?

Yes, conditions are met.

Killiam wrote: Question 3: Instead, assuming Nakhthorheb possessed the appropriate discipline, could he instead play Phantom Speaker at Melpominee or Psychomachia at Daimoinon at that point to continue the action?

Yes.

Killiam wrote: Question 4: Instead, could a supporting vampire now play Mask of 1,000 Faces to continue the action (after gaining control of the ally)?

Instead of using Crypt's Sons? No, he was blocked.
See also: groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/s1lJEsLMf-8/3CwIMglRboIJ

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