file Kamiri wa Itherero blocked by a minion, use of Taking the Skin: Minion

22 Oct 2018 08:40 - 23 Oct 2018 06:10 #91355 by PetriWessman
Follow-up of www.vekn.net/forum/rules-questions/59067-shadow-boxing-and-untap-after-during-combat

If Kamiri wa Itherero is blocked by an ally (and combat occurs), and the ally survives combat, can Kamiri use Taking the Skin: Minion (superior) to untap after his special burns the ally after combat?

I would say yes, since Taking the Skin: Minion can be played as an action modifier, and thus should be playable after Kamiri's special triggers, but I want to make sure :)

Kamiri wa Itherero
Laibon: Younger vampires must burn 1 blood to attempt to block Kamiri. If an ally blocks Kamiri and combat occurs, burn the ally at the end of the action.

Taking the Skin: Minion
[Action Modifier] Action Modifier
[Combat] Combat
[abo] [REFLEX] Cancel a frenzy card played on this vampire as it is played.
[abo] Skin. Play when this vampire burns a minion. Put this card on this vampire and untap him or her. This vampire may bleed an additional time this turn and gets +1 bleed and +1 stealth when bleeding. Burn this card during your discard phase. A minion can have only one skin.
Last edit: 23 Oct 2018 06:10 by Ankha.

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22 Oct 2018 13:36 #91359 by Klaital
I am not fully sure on that since Kamiri's special burns the ally at the end of the action. Is there an action going to modify anymore at that point? Does it count as being burned by him?

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22 Oct 2018 13:45 - 22 Oct 2018 13:47 #91362 by PetriWessman

Klaital wrote: I am not fully sure on that since Kamiri's special burns the ally at the end of the action. Is there an action going to modify anymore at that point? Does it count as being burned by him?


Well, Freak Drive (for example) says "Only usable at the end of a successful action (after resolving the action)", which could be understood to mean that there is an "end of action" window where effects can occur (and, presumably, the player can order them) and where Action Modifiers can still be played.

Or not. That's why I asked, I'm not 100% sure :)

Kamiri's effect happens "at the end of the action", the same place where FD (for example) is still playable, so I suspect it would work. But confirmation would be nice.
Last edit: 22 Oct 2018 13:47 by PetriWessman.

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22 Oct 2018 14:24 - 22 Oct 2018 14:26 #91367 by TryDeflectingThisGrapple
The timing window works - "at the end of an action" is still inside the bounds of the action and the play of modifiers not bound by that phrase is allowed.

You can reference rulings on Voter Cap (after successful referendum) and Freak Drive (at the end of an action) being playable in either order as supporting rationale.

The problem I see (as mentioned above) is "Play when this vampire burns a minion." at [ABO]. I'm not sure sequence when Kamiri's text burns a blocking ally after combat meets that restriction.

Sure, the blocking ally burns, and even from Kamiri's special. But the Taking the Skin text reflects an active trigger, and Kamiri's text is passive. "X burns / X is burned"" as opposed to "Kamiri burns X", if you get my drift. I'm watching this one, cause if it does work, there is a terribly bad Kamiri + Absimilard's Army deck ready to be designed.
Last edit: 22 Oct 2018 14:26 by TryDeflectingThisGrapple.
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22 Oct 2018 17:52 #91377 by Bloodartist

TryDeflectingThisGrapple wrote:
The problem I see (as mentioned above) is "Play when this vampire burns a minion." at [ABO]. I'm not sure sequence when Kamiri's text burns a blocking ally after combat meets that restriction.


It is Kamiri's text that burns it, so Kamiri himself, in my opinion. Would be mighty weird for vampire's textbox and vampire itself be considered separate entities...

"Plenty of little men tried to put their swords through my heart. And there's plenty of little skeletons buried in the woods."
- Tormund Giantsbane, Game of Thrones
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22 Oct 2018 19:01 - 22 Oct 2018 19:25 #91380 by TryDeflectingThisGrapple
groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/kamiri$20wa$20itherero%7Csort:date/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/V-kWdGYDkQY/-yFruMQfQdsJ .

Ossian blocks Kamiri on a D action. Ossian survives combat, and burns. Trophies cannot be awarded.

Rulebook text: When any vampire burns a Red List minion in combat or as a (D) action (including diablerie), the controller of the trophy may choose to move the trophy to that vampire.

It was a D action and a Red List minion burned. But Kamiri's controller still can't invoke the clause granting the Trophy. It's not the same case (IN a D action, not AS a D action), but I've seen a ton of strange ruling extrapolations based on explicit text over 20 years, and we continue to see it incessantly as we playtest cards. Also, environmental effects are handled quite differently from "inflicted" effects in other parts of the game, so I take little for granted.

It's why I'm watching the thread and re-emphasizing the topic, rather than jumping to conclusions.
Last edit: 22 Oct 2018 19:25 by TryDeflectingThisGrapple.

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