file Kamiri wa Itherero blocked by a minion, use of Taking the Skin: Minion

22 Oct 2018 21:04 #91389 by Ankha
Taking the Skin: Minion should read: Only usable after this vampire burns a minion.

In that scenario, the timing would be good, except that Kamiri does not burn the minion. It's an "environmental" effect.

Consider: "The opposing minion takes 2 damage." and "This minion inflicts 2 damage to the opposing minion."

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23 Oct 2018 00:46 #91396 by TryDeflectingThisGrapple

Ankha wrote: Taking the Skin: Minion should read: Only usable after this vampire burns a minion.

In that scenario, the timing would be good, except that Kamiri does not burn the minion. It's an "environmental" effect.

Consider: "The opposing minion takes 2 damage." and "This minion inflicts 2 damage to the opposing minion."


OK, I get that distinction. With respect to damage, it matters tons for Disarm and Pulled Fangs.

And please don't misunderstand, I like the environmental classification - it was I who proposed it for use with Trap's presses. So I'm totally on board.....but I want to pick at this a little for vampire text, because that application is new.

Consider: Minion A with [ANI][ABO] bleeds. Emerald Legionnaire B blocks. A: Carrion Crows. B: No Premaneuver. A: Maneuver to long with Fake Out. B: No Maneuver. Hand strikes. A takes no damage, B burns.

Can A play Taking the Skin? Conventional wisdom suggest yes.....but now we break down "environmental" is this broader context.

Vampire A's action clearly burned ally B, despite inflicting no damage attributed "physically attributed" to him. Ummm, that's kinda like the Kamiri-text case, isn't it?

So did Vampire A actually burn ally B, or is the label "environmental" getting in the way of him claiming HE did it? That seems to be the gist behind not letting Kamiri follow with Taking the Skin after a block, tight?

If TtS IS playable here (where environmental damage did all the dirty work), it starts to muddy the water. In one case, an environmental effect allows a follow-up play where other environmental effects didn't. I'm concerned about confusion when explaining the difference as a judge.

If TtS IS NOT playable after Crows accounts for a kill, it gets weird where Crows and hands strike both hit. The player controlling the ally could choose which part of the incoming "normal strike resolution" damage actually burned the ally. Maybe it requires prevention for the distinction to become apparent ((e.g., I take the Crows, Glancing Blow the hands, and burn, thereby preventing Taking the Skin).

So let's start with that base case....just Crows, maneuver, fry the ally. Can Vampire A play Take the Skin after killing it with an environmental effect? And why would that be different than killing it with a passive environmental effect.

And it there a different between something like Carrion Crows and Mambo Jean's text (or employed retainers like Murder of Crows) with respect to "passively there vs actively played" environmental effects. Good grief, I hope not.....I've had enough of that with Vlad.

Fortunately, we don't have to consider a vampire with the Book of Going Forth by Night and Taking the Skin.....the replacement effect makes it more straightforward :blink:

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23 Oct 2018 06:03 - 23 Oct 2018 06:07 #91400 by PetriWessman

Ankha wrote: Taking the Skin: Minion should read: Only usable after this vampire burns a minion.

In that scenario, the timing would be good, except that Kamiri does not burn the minion. It's an "environmental" effect.

Consider: "The opposing minion takes 2 damage." and "This minion inflicts 2 damage to the opposing minion."


Ok, fair enough, I get that distinction. Hmph, so that plan doesn't work, pity :)

The question posed by the previous post is interesting though. Is Taking the Skin: Minion playable if the vampire burned the opposing minion in combat via pure environmental damage (Crows, for example)?
Last edit: 23 Oct 2018 06:07 by PetriWessman.

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23 Oct 2018 06:17 #91401 by Ankha

PetriWessman wrote: The question posed by the previous post is interesting though. Is Taking the Skin: Minion playable if the vampire burned the opposing minion in combat via pure environmental damage (Crows, for example)?


Yes, per a ruling:

LSJ wrote: > What is the standard for whether a given minion is responsible for the
> burning?
Card text. Well, plus the aforecited ruling about a minion burned in combat is
considered burned by the opposing minion.


There is a detailed thread on the newsgroup about it:

LSJ wrote: >>> What about burning a minion with Auto-
>>> De-Fe?
>> The target minion is burned.
>
> ... and, since it was the result of a referendum, not of the action
> itself - the action merely calls the referendum - TtS:M cannot be
> played? (Not sure on this one.)
Card text: "that vampire's controller burns that vampire".
So Taking the Skin: Minion cannot be played.

>>> What if there some kind of action that put a Gehenna Event in
>>> play, thus burning Mukhtar Bey?
>> Then Bey would burn.
>
> But since the action just put a Gehenna event in play, causing Bey to
> burn himself, TtS:M cannot be played? (Parallel: War Ghoul.)
Correct.

>>> How do we tell what counts and what
>>> doesn't?
>> Card text.
>
> What is the standard for whether a given minion is responsible for the
> burning?
Card text. Well, plus the aforecited ruling about a minion burned in combat is
considered burned by the opposing minion.

> I'd have thought it would be clearer, based on whether the
> effect which caused the burning came from the minion or not, but based
> on the Julius ruling - that, say, if Julius were in combat with an Ex
> Nihilo'd vampire unable to do damage, and Julius set off his Bomb and
> blew himself up, it still counts as the Ex Nihilo'd vampire burning
> him despite the complete passivity of the Ex Nihilo'd vampire in the
> situation in question - I can't actually tell anymore what the
> standard is.
Being in combat is not being completely passive.

> Can we get a clear statement about what criteria cause
> the game state to regard Minion A as having burned Minion B? 'Cause
> "card text" alone leaves too many vague points; clarification on what
> card text should be communicating is needed.
If there are any ambiguities left after reading card text, I'll be happy to
address those.

and

LSJ wrote: > 1) Minion A takes a (D) action (under the newest definition of (D) actions) that
> "burns" Minion B explicitly by card text or rule text (i.e. Diablerie).
1) Minion a plays an effect which says "burn minion". Like diablerie (directed
action, undirected action, Amaranth or any other diablerie). Or other "burn
minion" effects, like Abomination, Akhenaten, Amam, Ambulance, Ankou, Cobra Fangs.

Note that, as for determining directedness, effects of referendums are not
counted here. In these cases, the minion's effect is to simply call the
referendum. (See ruling Josh cited earlier)

> 2) As (1), but the action does enough damage (aggravated if necessary) to cause
> Minion B to burn (i.e. Cryptic Mission on Mylan Horseed or on empty Julius).
2) Inflicting damage on a minion the handling of which burns the minion (via
aggravated damage for vampires or loss of life for allies), or simply removing
all the life from an ally (damage-related or not).

> 3) Minion B burns as a result of combat with Minion A, regardless of Minion A's
> activity in that combat.
3) Exactly.

> 4) Minion A (who is a vampire) blocks the "Leave Torpor" action of Minion B (who
> is a vampire) and chooses to diablerize.
Sure. But I'd put this under 1) above. Same for a Banshee Ironwail bearer
blocking an ally with one life.

> 5) Some non-action effect specifically says "(A minion) burns (another minion)".
Also covered by 1) if you don't bother restricting 1) to "action". :-)


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23 Oct 2018 07:15 #91403 by Bloodartist

Ankha wrote:

PetriWessman wrote: The question posed by the previous post is interesting though. Is Taking the Skin: Minion playable if the vampire burned the opposing minion in combat via pure environmental damage (Crows, for example)?


Yes, per a ruling:

LSJ wrote: > What is the standard for whether a given minion is responsible for the
> burning?
Card text. Well, plus the aforecited ruling about a minion burned in combat is
considered burned by the opposing minion.


Well, I see where this is getting at. Minion opposing Kamiri is burned at end of the action, not at the end of combat? So in theory taking the skin condition is not met?

Overall, I can see the logic, although I wish the cardtexts didn't have to go this deep into complexity to be figured out how they work.. In here my issue are the numerous different steps (end of round of combat, end of combat, end of action etc)

"Plenty of little men tried to put their swords through my heart. And there's plenty of little skeletons buried in the woods."
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23 Oct 2018 08:16 #91412 by Ankha

Bloodartist wrote: Overall, I can see the logic, although I wish the cardtexts didn't have to go this deep into complexity to be figured out how they work..

Unfortunately, this is inevitable: you have to read and understand cards. The card itself is not complex, the interaction is.

Bloodartist wrote: In here my issue are the numerous different steps (end of round of combat, end of combat, end of action etc)

It is part of the game.

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