file Spying Mission, successful actions, Zephyr and Freak Drive

07 Dec 2018 15:04 #92298 by jamesatzephyr
This just turned up on Facebook, so seemed a good one to share here.

Q: Can Zephyr be played after playing Spying Mission?

A: No. Spying Mission makes the bleed unsuccessful (reduced to zero), but the action is still successful. This means that effects that care about an action being successful (e.g. inferior Freak Drive) or unsuccessful (e.g. Zephyr) will see a successful action - but an unsuccessful bleed.

[LSJ 20010205]

LSJ wrote: Superior SM is played when a bleed would have been
> successful.
> Playing SM makes it an unsuccessful bleed (bleeds for 0 or less are
> not considered successful, and do not therefore garner the Edge).

Correct [6.1.1]

> Note that
> the action itself is successful, for cards that care about such things
> (inferior Freak Drive, Blood of the Sabbat, et alia).

Correct.


Card texts:

Name: Spying Mission
Cardtype: Action Modifier
Discipline: Obfuscate
[obf] +1 stealth.
[OBF] Only usable when a bleed would be successful. The bleed burns no pool; it is unsuccessful. Instead, put this card on the acting vampire. The next time this vampire would successfully bleed the same Methuselah, burn this card for +2 bleed.

Name: Zephyr
Cardtype: Action Modifier
Discipline: Celerity
Only usable after resolution of an unsuccessful action.
[cel] Unlock this vampire at the end of the turn.
[CEL] Unlock this vampire.

Name: Freak Drive
Cardtype: Action Modifier
Cost: 1 blood
Discipline: Fortitude
[for] Only usable at the end of a successful action (after resolving the action). This vampire unlocks.
[FOR] As above, but usable even if the action is blocked (play after combat, if any).

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08 Dec 2018 06:27 #92303 by jtroyve
Time to overrule lsj? The bleed is the action. The action is to bleed. Bleed unsuccessful is action unsuccessful. Right? It says so right there in the card.

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08 Dec 2018 11:10 - 08 Dec 2018 11:19 #92304 by Palamedes
The Rulebook says:
6.1.1. Bleed
...if the action succeeds and the bleed amount is one or more, then the bleed is successful...

The bleed action itself is successful, but the bleeding for zero is unsuccessful bleed (and you don't get the edge), so playing Zephyr is not possible, but inferior Freak Drive is.

It is the same like political action, if your political action is not blocked, but referendum fails, it is still successful action, but unsuccessful referendum.
Last edit: 08 Dec 2018 11:19 by Palamedes.

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08 Dec 2018 12:09 #92305 by jamesatzephyr

jtroyve wrote: Bleed unsuccessful is action unsuccessful. Right?


No. Any action is successful if it reaches resolution without being blocked. The resolution of that action may then turn out to be useless.

See also: I bleed you for one. You play Telepathic Counter to reduce the bleed to zero, but do not block. The action is successful, the bleed isn't. I can play Freak Drive at inferior.

Similarly, a political action can be successful (not blocked), and then the referendum fails. Even if the referendum fails, I can play Freak Drive at inferior.

jtroyve wrote: It says so right there in the card.


The card says the bleed is unsuccessful. Using that to support the idea that the action is also unsuccessful is circular logic.

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12 Dec 2018 10:10 #92348 by jtroyve
I -lock- corrected then. The political example made it so much clearer though. thanks.

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