file Libertas when you atempt to bloock

12 Jan 2019 10:25 #92785 by beslin igor
Libertas
Cardtype: Master
Cost: 1 pool
Master. Requires an anarch.
Put this card on an anarch. Allies cannot block this anarch. Cards that require Dominate [dom] or Presence
 cost other minions an additional blood while this anarch is acting, attempting to block, or in combat.

I have 3 question about Libertas when you atempt to bloock.

1) do acting vampire must pay also action card(I ask because card is played before block atempted)?

2) can you atempt to block and Libertas text to take efect even if is action on 1 stealt and you declare block atempt only to force acting minion to pay action card and modifiers(dom and pre)?

3) similar as question 2,but when acting minion play action card with 1 stealt,you use reaction card with text: unlock and atempts to block(you still have 0 intercept),if Libertas text force acting minion to pay dom and pre cards?

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12 Jan 2019 10:42 - 12 Jan 2019 10:58 #92786 by Bloodartist

beslin igor wrote:
I have 3 question about Libertas when you atempt to bloock.

1) do acting vampire must pay also action card(I ask because card is played before block atempted)?

2) can you atempt to block and Libertas text to take efect even if is action on 1 stealt and you declare block atempt only to force acting minion to pay action card and modifiers(dom and pre)?

3) similar as question 2,but when acting minion play action card with 1 stealt,you use reaction card with text: unlock and atempts to block(you still have 0 intercept),if Libertas text force acting minion to pay dom and pre cards?


edit: ok I think I understand the question now... Let me know if this isn't right:
So
- Your vampire has libertas.
- Predators vampire is trying to do superior govern the unaligned

- Question 2: Even if you don't have sufficient intercept, you can say that you attempt to block (this is how it works with tangle atropos hand) to make the govern cost 1 extra blood. You don't have to catch the action.

- Question 3: same as with question 2. Yes, govern costs extra.

- I believe the extra cost is paid upon action resolution, as action cards are usually paid? I am not sure of this. If it is, then libertas can possibly make the action fail if predators vampire has only 1 blood to pay govern.

ps. Its morning and I'm not a morning person. Lets hope I didn't mess things up more.

"Do you believe in the power of the night?
If you want to go with me, refuse the light"
- Blutengel, Soultaker
Last edit: 12 Jan 2019 10:58 by Bloodartist.

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12 Jan 2019 11:23 #92789 by jamesatzephyr

beslin igor wrote: Libertas
Cardtype: Master
Cost: 1 pool
Master. Requires an anarch.
Put this card on an anarch. Allies cannot block this anarch. Cards that require Dominate [dom] or Presence {pre} cost other minions an additional blood while this anarch is acting, attempting to block, or in combat.


The key part of this text for your questions is "while this anarch is... attempting to block". It isn't "If this anarch declares a block attempt, this effect persists for the rest of the action." It is only while the anarch is attempting to block. If the block attempt is over, it doesn't affect the acting vampire (unless you're in combat, obviously).

[LSJ 20080818]

LSJ wrote: > If a vampire with Libertas blocks but fails in block attempt is the
> effect still applied until the end of the action? I'd guess no,

Correct (card text).



beslin igor wrote: 1) do acting vampire must pay also action card(I ask because card is played before block atempted)?


It can't affect the cost the vampire pays for the action card. That payment occurs when the action is successful. The vampire with Libertas's block attempt has failed. The effect no longer occurs.

[LSJ 20081027]

LSJ wrote: Libertas doesn't affect the cost of action cards. The cost is not paid while the
Libertas anarch is attempting to block.


beslin igor wrote: 2) can you atempt to block and Libertas text to take efect even if is action on 1 stealt and you declare block atempt only to force acting minion to pay action card and modifiers(dom and pre)?


It won't affect the action card.

It potentially can affect the action modifiers if they are played during the attempt to block, such as if - starting from zero stealth and zero intercept - I bleed you, you attempt to block, and I play Bonding at superior to get stealth. That would be played while you were attempting to block, so the cost would be affected by Libertas.

In the situation you describe, where the action is already at +1 stealth and you have zero intercept, the acting vampire might simply sit there and say "Okay, are you playing any intercept?" When you don't, and no-one else provides any cross-table intercept (such as tapping a newspaper for you), your block attempt fails, and you eventually pass on block attempts entirely. They can then go on to play, say, Threats, when you are not attempting to block.

Additionally, as with Blessing of Chaos, the acting Methuselah does not have to give you the opportunity to declare a block attempt until they're done playing action modifiers in the first place. So I could declare a bleed attempt, play Seduction and/or Force of Personality in the "as the action is announced" window (you can't declare a block attempt here). Then in the normal course of the action, I have the impulse and so play Perfect Paragon at superior to give allies and younger vampires -1 intercept, before passing the impulse to you to allow you to declare blocks, play reactions etc.

beslin igor wrote: 3) similar as question 2,but when acting minion play action card with 1 stealt,you use reaction card with text: unlock and atempts to block(you still have 0 intercept),if Libertas text force acting minion to pay dom and pre cards?


This is no different from situation 2. You can attempt a block even if you know you won't be able to be successful. But the acting vampire will probably wait for you to stop your attempt (when it fails) before playing anything that would be affected.
The following user(s) said Thank You: lionel, beslin igor

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13 Jan 2019 00:16 #92814 by Lönkka
Uh, didn't Blessing of Chaos working differently?

Wasn't it enough just to try to, even unsuccessfully, block with minion having BoC to get the effect of BoC on the minion acting?

If it doesn't work apparently someone has taught the way BoC works in a wrong way around here then.

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13 Jan 2019 01:04 #92815 by jamesatzephyr

Lönkka wrote: Uh, didn't Blessing of Chaos working differently?


Blessing of Chaos works differently overall, because it has different card text.

[LSJ 20080818]

LSJ wrote: > If a vampire with Libertas blocks but fails in block attempt is the
> effect still applied until the end of the action? I'd guess no,

Correct (card text).

> but
> have to ask because afaik Blessing of Chaos has it's effect applied
> until the end of the action in similar situations.

Also card text.



However, where the two cards overlap is that they both require a block to be declared, before they have any effect at all. Hence an acting vampire worried about either Blessing of Chaos or Libertas can potentially play the relevant action modifiers before the relevant would-be blocker has a chance to attempt to block. (It will depend on individual action modifiers as to whether they're playable or not of course.) The would-be blocker can't just force themselves into blocking - so, for example, an acting vampire who wants to play Threats to get it out of their hand without suffering from either Libertas or Blessing of Chaos can do so before giving anyone the opportunity to block. Why would you do that with Libertas, rather than just waiting for the block to fail? Perhaps you think the block won't fail, and you want to cycle into some stealth, and so are happy to play the Threats early/unnecessarily.

Hence when I say:

I wrote: Additionally, as with Blessing of Chaos, the acting Methuselah does not have to give you the opportunity to declare a block attempt until they're done playing action modifiers in the first place.

... the fact that the acting Methuselah does not have to give the would-be blocker a chance to block until after they're done playing some action modifiers, that's all I'm comparing the two for.

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13 Jan 2019 23:19 #92841 by Lönkka
Thanks for the time and effort James!

The ability of acting player to play action modifiers before the blocker has a window is clear and easy to understand and that was never in doubt.


The effect on action modifiers is a different case.

Blessing of Chaos:
"If this vampire attempts to block, the acting vampire cannot play action modifiers requiring Dementation , Chimerstry, Dominate or Presence. "

If this works as I've been taught in the past (not being able to play those action modifiers after block ATTEMPT) apparently "attempts to block" = "has attempted to block".


Libertas:
"Cards that require Dominate or Presence cost other minions an additional blood while this anarch is acting, attempting to block, or in combat."


So "attempting to block" = "is/would be blocking" (since apparently trying to block but not being able/willing to match intercept will result in unsuccessful block after which the Catch-22 acting minion can ignore Libertas.)

Which is rather silly as it makes cycling a bleed increase to get more useful card more expensive (probably not the effect that was sought with the card). So stealth increase is basically the only thing that be more costly but there are very few Dominate or Presence cards that increase stealth. So the effect on blocking is less than marginal if a successful block is needed (surely this can't have been the intention!)

Dominate has Bonding and Shroud of Absence that increase stealth.
Presence has Virtuosa (which see "plenty" of use) and Power of One that do the same.

Yes, Libertas does have other effects too so the blocking thing ain't the only thing it does.


But the whole thing boils down to the difference between "attempts to block" and "is attempting to block". Both, in my mind, as an ESL speaker, can well mean something that is happening at the moment. But the former means "attempts or has attempted to block" and the latter apparently does not.

In my honest opinion this is way too close to one another and would either require a bit more thought on exact wording or changing Libertas to work like the extremely similar one card instead of confusing players. I'm under the assumption that the great idea some years ago was to make cards that work similar way be worded similarily. I do not know if Scott actually meant Libertas to work the same way as Blessing of Chaos. If this was the case rewording would be needed to make it work like Blessing of Chaos. If this was not the case a rewording would be needed so it would be more clear that it works differently.

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