file Black Chantry Rulebook Feedback

08 Feb 2019 18:53 #93369 by 2wayspeaker

You cannot attempt an action for which you do not meet the requirements. Cost is a requirement.


Here is what the rules say about actions:
1.1. Important Terms in the Game
Locking and Unlocking: During play, you will turn cards sideways to "lock" them, indicating that the cards have been used for some particular purpose or effect. Unlocking a card restores it to its original position, indicating that the card is reset and will be able to be locked again later. Only unlocked minions can take actions, block the actions of other minions, or play reaction cards (see Minion Phase, sec. 6).
1. Action cards: A minion can play an action card to take an action other than the default actions like "hunt". Only one action card can be played for the action; action cards cannot be used to modify other actions.
1.6.1.3 Requirements for Playing Cards. Each library card has symbols on the attribute bar (the marble stripe on the left side) for the card type (except for master cards), the clan or Discipline (if any) required to play the card and the cost (if any) of playing that card. Some cards will have other requirements (such as capacity or title) stated in the card text. Only a minion who meets the requirements given on a minion card can play it, while only a Methuselah who controls a ready minion who meets the requirements of a master card can play it.
6. Minion Phase

Most of the activity in the game occurs in the minion phases. During your minion phase, you may have your minions take actions. Only ready unlocked minions can take actions, and taking an action locks the acting minion. Other Methuselah's ready unlocked minions may attempt to block your action, and blocking locks the blocking minion (see Resolve Any Block Attempts, sec. 6.2.2). An action is successful only if it is not blocked. Each action is resolved (successful or blocked) before another action can be attempted.

As noted, only ready unlocked minions can take actions, and taking an action locks the acting minion. So, if the minion manages to unlock (due to a card or an effect) during this phase, it is possible for him to take another action.

Some actions are mandatory. For example, a ready vampire with no blood must hunt. During your minion phase, none of your minions can take any non-mandatory actions if any of your ready unlocked minions have mandatory actions yet to perform. If you have two or more minions with mandatory actions, they may be done in the order you choose. A minion with a mandatory action to perform cannot perform any other action. If a single minion has two or more different mandatory actions, then he is "stuck" and cannot take any action (this doesn't prevent your other minions from taking non-mandatory actions, however).
6.1. Types of Actions

By default (without the use of a card), a ready minion can perform one of two actions: bleed or hunt.
Good to know resque from torpor doesn't exist.
Ready minions can also use actions to bring different types of permanent resources into play. These include equipment (such as computers, guns and exotic artifacts), retainers (henchmen, attendants or animals commanded into the service of the minion) and allies (non-vampire minions, such as mages, werewolves or ordinary mortals). An equipment card is brought into play with an equip action, a retainer with the employ retainer action, and an ally with the recruit ally action. These three actions are very similar, although the cards they bring into play are not. Equipment (but not retainers) can also be moved from one minion to another by taking an action.

Instead of taking a default action, a ready minion could play an action card to perform the action indicated on the card. Some action cards are enhanced versions of the default bleed action or other basic actions, while others are original types of actions. A special type of action card is the political action card, which a vampire can use to call a referendum.

In addition, there are special actions available for dealing with anarchs and with vampires in torpor. These actions are not described here (see Torpor, sec. 6.5 and Anarchs, sec. 10.5).
6.1.6. Action Card (or Card in Play)

A minion can use an action card to take an action, and some cards in play will allow special actions to be taken as well.

Unless otherwise noted on the card, these actions are at 0 stealth (see Stealth and Intercept, sec. 6.2.2.2) and can be attempted by both vampires and allies. If the card describes a special version of a basic action, then all the rules that apply to the basic action apply, except as otherwise noted on the card.

If Krid plays Computer Hacking (text: "Action. Bleed at +1"), then all the normal rules of bleed actions (only being able to target your prey, for example) apply, except that the bleed amount is increased by one.

To take the action described on an action card in your hand, play the card and lock the acting minion. If the action is successful, it resolves as indicated on the card (and the cost, if any, is paid). If the action is unsuccessful, the card is burned.

To take the action described by a card in play, announce the action and lock the acting minion. If the action is successful, it resolves as indicated on the card (and the cost, if any, is paid). If the action is unsuccessful, there is no effect.

A minion cannot perform an action with the same action card more than once each turn, even if he unlocks.  A minion cannot perform each action via the same card in play (including from the minion's own card text) more than once each turn, even if he unlocks.

To take the action described on an action card in your hand, play the card and lock the acting minion. If the action is successful, it resolves as indicated on the card (and the cost, if any, is paid). If the action is unsuccessful, the card is burned.
6.2. Taking an Action

Any ready unlocked minion you control can take an action. The procedure for resolving an action is described in the following sections. Note that action modifiers and reaction cards can be played at any time in this process as appropriate, subject to the restrictions on adding stealth and intercept listed below and the restrictions against the same minion playing the same action modifier or reaction card more than once (see Minion Cards, sec. 1.6.3), and following the same sequencing strictures of all effects (see Sequencing, sec. 1.6.1.6).
Summary of the Course of an Action

    The action is declared, and the card used for the action (action card, equipment, etc.) is played, if any. Lock the minion who is taking the action (the "acting minion").
    The target Methuselahs may try to block the action with any of their ready unlocked minions. If the action doesn't target another Methuselah, or targets a card controlled by the acting Methuselah, then the minions of the prey and predator may try to block.
    If one attempt to block is unsuccessful, another attempt can be made. If no more attempts are made, then the action is successful, and the cost of the action is paid. If a block attempt is successful, then the blocking minion locks and enters combat with the acting minion.

Action modifiers and reaction cards can be played at any time before resolution during an action (unless otherwise noted on card text), with the acting Methuselah getting the opportunity to play first. Only the acting minion can play action modifiers, while only other Methuselahs' ready unlocked minions can play reaction cards. The effect of an action modifier or a reaction card lasts for the duration of the current action by default. Also remember that the same minion cannot play the same action modifier or reaction card more than once per action.
6.2.1. Announce the Action

All details of the action are declared when the action is announced, including the target(s), the cost, the effects, etc. Any card required for the action is played (face up) at this time. Lock the acting minion (only ready unlocked minions can take actions).

EXCEPTION: Any decisions to be made for a referendum are not declared until the action succeeds (see The Political Action, sec. 6.3.1).
6.2.3. Resolve the Action

If the action is successful (all block attempts were unsuccessful), then the cost of the action is paid and the effects of the successful action take place. If the action is blocked, then any card played to take the action is burned (it is moved to the ash heap) and the blocking minion is locked and enters combat with the acting minion (see Combat, sec. 6.4). The effects of the action do not take place when the action is blocked. Note that the action's cost, if any, is only paid if the action succeeds; the cost is not paid if the action is blocked. The costs of action modifiers and reaction cards are always paid when the cards are played, regardless of the success of the action.

If the action is successful (all block attempts were unsuccessful), then the cost of the action is paid and the effects of the successful action take place.




The rulebook differentiates between requirement and cost.
Cost is paid after the action is successful.

If you argue that paragraph 1.6.1.3 places the cost under the label "requirements" there are still 8 paragraphs dedicated to Actions that do not mention anything about requirements at all and 2 paragraphs that say you check if you can pay the cost after the action is successful.

Not clear, and a defendable point using only what is written in the rulebook.

Anyway, that wasn't the point of my original remark.

In the same vein: You are allowed to attempt completely useless actions (bleed 0, action fizzle bcs can't pay cost, etc...) and waste modifiers attempting them. Not specified.



Reminder vampire abilities/specials are not clearly defined, is +strength an ability? is the title an ability? is everything not in bold text an ability?

If you give an example it's easier to see the possibilities.
For example: The Arcadian uses his special while on 1 blood (because 0 blood vampires are forced to hunt) to announce a bleed action against his prey on 21 pool.
The Arcadian may bleed at +1 stealth and +1 bleed as a (D) action that costs 1 blood.
  • Arcadian plays a Seduction on superior on a minion crosstable.
  • Arcadian plays a Foreshadowing Destruction on Superior.
  • Prey declines to block.
  • Prey plays Deflection with a locked reacting vampire.
  • Arcadian plays a Conditioning on Superior. (payed instantly)
  • Grandprey declines to block.
  • The Arcadian has no bloos to pay the cost of his action and the action "fizzles" Also NOT a defined concept

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08 Feb 2019 20:25 #93371 by kschaefer
Removed unnecessary text for commenting purposes:

...
Good to know resque from torpor doesn't exist.

Not by default. There has to be a vampire in torpor to be able to perform that action.

...
The rulebook differentiates between requirement and cost.
...
If you argue that paragraph 1.6.1.3 places the cost under the label "requirements" there are still 8 paragraphs dedicated to Actions that do not mention anything about requirements at all and 2 paragraphs that say you check if you can pay the cost after the action is successful.
...

In the same vein: You are allowed to attempt completely useless actions (bleed 0, action fizzle bcs can't pay cost, etc...) and waste modifiers attempting them. Not specified.

The point is you cannot begin an action that you cannot pay the cost for. It is part of the general requirements of all cards. When the cost is paid is apparently causing confusion.

If the rulebook stated under actions: "Even though actions are only paid for when successful, you must be able to pay the cost to attempt the action or you cannot do so." Clear up this confusion?

It's more clear in the general rulings section, cf. the original ruling.

For example: The Arcadian uses his special while on 1 blood (because 0 blood vampires are forced to hunt) to announce a bleed action against his prey on 21 pool.
The Arcadian may bleed at +1 stealth and +1 bleed as a (D) action that costs 1 blood.

The Arcadian had enough blood to pay for the cost of the action, so he can attempt it. He could not attempt Dominate Kine or Mind Rape, for instance, which require 2 blood. If by the time the action resolve, he can no longer pay that cost it fizzles (same ruling as above). Fizzle, as a concept, (or perhaps something that has less of a WotC Magic-inspired history) should make its way into the rulebook; we shouldn't need to read rulings for it.

Though I am not writing the rulebook, I think this discussion is good for examining the weak spots in the current rulebook. It seems that the delay in paying for actions requires additional clarity vis-a-vis cost requirements.
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08 Feb 2019 20:28 - 08 Feb 2019 20:34 #93372 by 2wayspeaker

It's more clear in the general rulings section, cf. the original ruling.


Answering a new players question with "Because LSJ said so" isn't helping.

...
Good to know rescue from torpor doesn't exist.

Not by default. There has to be a vampire in torpor to be able to perform that action.


We have had a new player lose a tournament finals he was about to win because he did not realise that rescuing from torpor was an available action.
Last edit: 08 Feb 2019 20:34 by 2wayspeaker.
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08 Feb 2019 20:40 #93373 by kschaefer

Answering a new players question with "Because LSJ said so" isn't helping.

I specifically asked if additional wording in particular sections would be helpful, and?

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09 Feb 2019 09:19 #93374 by drnlmza

We have had a new player lose a tournament finals he was about to win because he did not realise that rescuing from torpor was an available action


Here, you appear to be arguing that people need to be able to play the game without actually reading the rulebook, which is hardly a useful position.

That option is described in the rulebook in Section 6.5.3. The general section on actions 6.1 specifically points readers to Section 6.5 as where actions that involve vampires in torpor are described ("In addition, there are special actions available for dealing with anarchs and with vampires in torpor. These actions are not described here (see Torpor, sec. 6.5 and Anarchs, sec. 10.5").

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South Africa

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09 Feb 2019 11:53 - 09 Feb 2019 14:03 #93378 by Timo

6.1.5. Recruit Ally (+1 stealth)
Allies are action cards that become minions in their
own right, capable of acting and blocking independently
of the minion that recruits them. The recruit ally action
has a default +1 stealth.
To recruit an ally from your hand, play the card and lock the
acting minion. If the action is successful, the ally is placed in your
uncontrolled region, even though it is controlled, to indicate that
it cannot act this turn
(and the cost, if any, is paid).


I am pretty sure the bold part is no longer true...

IIRC the ally is now in your control region but can't act the turn it is recruited.

At the end of your influence phase, any vampire in your
uncontrolled region with a number of blood counters on him equal
to (or more than) his capacity becomes controlled. The vampire
is turned face up and moved to the ready region, unlocked. The
counters are kept on him to represent his blood (counters in excess
of his capacity drain off immediately as usual). Other types of crypt
cards are handled similarly.


This is also no longer the case.

Actually, it makes me wondering if I am reading the correct rulebook...

10. Vampire Sects
Some of the various clans of vampires have grouped themselves
into sects. Each sect represents clans with similar philosophies and
goals. Each sect has its own codes of conduct and its own political
structure and titles.
No matter what sect, a vampire cannot have more than one title.
If a vampire with a title gains another, he loses the first title, even
if the new title would be a demotion. If a vampire with a contested
title (see Contested Titles, sec. 4.2) gains a title, he immediately
yields the contested title.
Each vampire’s sect is given in its card text, and that may
override the default sect of that vampire’s clan (see the lists in the
following sections). If a vampire changes clans (by means of a
Clan Impersonation card, for example) to a clan that belongs to a
different sect, he changes sects as well. A vampire must belong to
the appropriate sect to receive a title.
A vampire must belong to the appropriate sect to receive a title.

If a vampire with a title changes clans or sects to a clan or sect
inappropriate for his title, he loses the benefit of the title until his
clan or sect changes appropriately. If he receives a new title, or if his
title is contested (see Contested Titles, sec. 4.2), he immediately
yields the old title.


There is a repetition.

10.5. Anarchs
Anarch is not a sect itself, just a special attribute that some
Independent vampires can have.


OK, I understand, the PDF format is outdated... That's why...
Last edit: 09 Feb 2019 14:03 by Timo.

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