file Black Chantry Rulebook Feedback

11 Feb 2019 14:24 - 11 Feb 2019 14:34 #93414 by Ankha

The reason for this confusion is due to poor or nonexistent card templating. The rules can't really clear this up because the cards don't make any meaningful distinction between costs and effects.


I agree that the legacy templating is far from being perfect, but the one you are pointing out is consistent throughout all the cards.

"Do X to do Y" : X is the cost, Y the effect.

The original assumption :

No, you can lock locked vampired for cost.

Everycard that doesnt include "an unlocked vampire" means you can lock a locked or unlocked vampire.


is simply wrong, And it's not related to templating.

Perhaps a format similar to what Magic (and the LCGs use) would be helpful here. That format is [cost] colon [effect]. So for example:

"Lock a minion you control: Your prey burns 1 pool." versus "Burn 1 pool: Lock a minion."

Everything before the colon (":") is the cost that is paid, or required. Everything afterwards is part of the effect.

This is another way of representing the exact same thing. I'm not convinced it's clearer when mixed up with other text on the card.

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Last edit: 11 Feb 2019 14:34 by Ankha.

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11 Feb 2019 14:55 #93416 by Mewcat

The reason for this confusion is due to poor or nonexistent card templating. The rules can't really clear this up because the cards don't make any meaningful distinction between costs and effects.


I agree that the legacy templating is far from being perfect, but the one you are pointing out is consistent throughout all the cards.

"Do X to do Y" : X is the cost, Y the effect.


It has everything to do with templating and consistent communication. The idea of costs and effects is quite simple but when we look at the cards and rulings it becomes anything but. The cards don't say "do x to do y". They have every possible ham fisted variation.

Without a consistent way to tell what is a cost and what an effect on every card a general rule gets us nowhere.

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11 Feb 2019 14:56 - 11 Feb 2019 15:03 #93417 by TwoRazorReign

Perhaps a format similar to what Magic (and the LCGs use) would be helpful here. That format is [cost] colon [effect]. So for example:

"Lock a minion you control: Your prey burns 1 pool." versus "Burn 1 pool: Lock a minion."

Everything before the colon (":") is the cost that is paid, or required. Everything afterwards is part of the effect.

This is another way of representing the exact same thing. I'm not convinced it's clearer when mixed up with other text on the card.


I disagree that it wouldn't be clearer. The existence of the punctuation (the colon) is absolutely crucial for the MtG template to work. Whenever the template is used, the colon is included, so there is a visual cue that a template is being used. The "Tap X to do Y" template does not have a similar visual cue, so it's not always clear to the reader that a template with specific functions is being used.

In addition, the colon forces the card to not "mix up other text" and deviate too far from the template, as is often the case with "Tap X to do Y". Whoever developed the "Tap X do Y" template really did not understand that templates are used to provide consistency and structure to the text, first and foremost, so that the reader can understand the rules. It's not meant to be a rule in itself ("do this whenever this template is used")
Last edit: 11 Feb 2019 15:03 by TwoRazorReign.
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11 Feb 2019 16:28 - 11 Feb 2019 16:30 #93420 by Ankha

I disagree that it wouldn't be clearer. The existence of the punctuation (the colon) is absolutely crucial for the MtG template to work. Whenever the template is used, the colon is included, so there is a visual cue that a template is being used. The "Tap X to do Y" template does not have a similar visual cue, so it's not always clear to the reader that a template with specific functions is being used.

MtG is another game with a majority of triggered effects. It's logical that triggered effects are emphasized. It would be weird to do the same in V:TES since they are very few effects such as these.

In addition, the colon forces the card to not "mix up
other text" and deviate too far from the template, as is often the case with "Tap X to do Y".

This is false. Can you point out cases where the "tap ... to ..." template is not consistent?

Whoever developed the "Tap X do Y" template really did not understand that templates are used to provide consistency and structure to the text, first and foremost, so that the reader can understand the rules. It's not meant to be a rule in itself ("do this whenever this template is used")

This is the case. The usage of "tap ... to ..." is consistent and provides structure to the text. I understand it's not written the way you'd like it to be written, but that's another subject to which I answered in my previous post. For instance, usage of a colon could get mixed up with strikes that use colons.

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Last edit: 11 Feb 2019 16:30 by Ankha.

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11 Feb 2019 19:28 #93423 by Mewcat
I can unequivocally state that the best way to make cards is for each card to have 3 categories.

1. Requirements, followed by a list of all requirements.

2. Costs, followed by a list of all costs.

3. Effects, followed by a list of all effects.

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11 Feb 2019 20:06 #93424 by Lönkka

Perhaps a format similar to what Magic (and the LCGs use) would be helpful here. That format is [cost] colon [effect]. So for example:

"Lock a minion you control: Your prey burns 1 pool." versus "Burn 1 pool: Lock a minion."

Everything before the colon (":") is the cost that is paid, or required. Everything afterwards is part of the effect.


Here here!
A very clear and precise method of delivering info.

Why not make the cards as clear as possibly able?

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