file Madness network and blocking the action to destroy it?

07 Sep 2019 12:23 - 07 Sep 2019 12:29 #96847 by Kilrauko

Lech wrote: I think that unlocked malkavian can second tradition it if they control the card, thankfully they can't if it's not theirs which is rather rare.


Yeah the commentor had trouble understanding the situation where they didn't control the Malkavian Madness network and specifically pointed how even with these answers they were not sure of official ruling. So being old and jaded enough I had no trouble bumping this and asking it directly again. Because I think it benefits all if we get clear rulings so people understand how the game is played, it reduces the unnecessary noise and mistakes. I personally agree on that "no they cannot block with 2nd trad or sense savage way" viewpoint but it's not "official" without rubber stamp from official source.

Card texts provided here;

Name: Madness Network
[Jyhad:R, VTES:R, CE:R, KoT:R]
Cardtype: Master
Clan: Malkavian
Unique master.
Put this card in play. Unlocked Malkavians can take actions in any Methuselah's minion phase (follow normal sequencing rules). Any minion can burn this card as an action that any unlocked Malkavian (in addition to the normally eligible blockers) can attempt to block.
Artist: Leif Jones; Anson Maddocks

Name: Second Tradition: Domain
AKA: The Second Tradition: Domain
[Jyhad:U, VTES:U, CE:U/PTo/PV2, KMW:PAl3, KoT:U/PV3, 25th:3]
Cardtype: Reaction
Requires a prince or justicar.
+2 intercept. Also usable by a locked prince or justicar, even if intercept is not yet needed, to burn 1 blood to unlock and attempt to block with +2 intercept.
Artist: L. A. Williams; Durwin Talon

Name: Sense the Savage Way
[LotN:C, KoT:C]
Cardtype: Reaction
Discipline: Animalism
Requires a vampire with capacity above 6.
[ani] +1 intercept.
[ANI] Only usable by a locked vampire. This vampire unlocks and attempts to block.
Artist: Eric Lofgren


And the matter is on locked malkavian controlled by someone else then the Madness Network controlling methuselah unlocking and blocking via card that allows unlock. The Specific point is whether or not the locked vampire has to be eligible to block to even play the reaction card that allows unlock?

Trust in Jan Pieterzoon.
Last edit: 07 Sep 2019 12:29 by Kilrauko. Reason: Booze english corrections.

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08 Sep 2019 06:33 #96857 by Timo
There is no need of an official ruling here.

To attempt to block, you have to be allowed to block (for example being the target of a D action). This is not a ruling, this is the rulebook.

And so, nothing allows a locked malkavian controlled by an other meth to attempt to block this action so he can't play second trad.

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08 Sep 2019 09:37 - 08 Sep 2019 09:39 #96859 by Bloodartist

Timo wrote: To attempt to block, you have to be allowed to block (for example being the target of a D action). This is not a ruling, this is the rulebook.

And so, nothing allows a locked malkavian controlled by an other meth to attempt to block this action so he can't play second trad.


But this situation is very similar to standard blocking. Imagine you have a locked vampire and your predator is bleeding you. You cannot block because you are locked. You can play 2nd trad to unlock and attempt to block because you are allowed to block actions directed at you.

Similarly, removal of madness network is kind of like a d-action against all owners of a malkavian, so one could theorize that you are allowed to unlock and attempt to block. You cant block anything anyway if you are locked... The word "unlocked" in network seems superfluous, and possibly intended to indicate that you can't always attempt to block, even when locked and without having any cards (similar to no secrets from the magaji). That would be silly.

I feel like the spirit of the card text was for network removal to be like "D-action against all Malkavians". Now do we rule it that way or not, that is the question. At any rate this is a very gray area. Do we rule by spirit of card text of the exact card text... I feel that doing the latter will lead to these ridiculous rulings common to VTES...

"Plenty of little men tried to put their swords through my heart. And there's plenty of little skeletons buried in the woods."
- Tormund Giantsbane, Game of Thrones
Last edit: 08 Sep 2019 09:39 by Bloodartist.

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08 Sep 2019 15:20 #96867 by redwulfe
This seems pretty clear in the rules to me.
Who May Attempt to Block: If the action targets one or more other Methuselahs (or things controlled by other Methuselahs), then the action is called directed, and only the Methuselahs who are targeted (or control the targets) may use their ready unlocked minions to attempt to block the action (going clockwise from the acting Methuselah, as usual).

Since madness netwrok targets "things controlled by other Methuselahs" it is directed and therefore the "Methuselahs who are targeted (or control the targets) may use their ready unlocked minions to attempt to block the action"

So since they are allowed to make the attempt then wake effects should work.

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08 Sep 2019 15:45 #96868 by jamesatzephyr

redwulfe wrote: Since madness netwrok targets "things controlled by other Methuselahs" it is directed and therefore the "Methuselahs who are targeted (or control the targets) may use their ready unlocked minions to attempt to block the action"

So since they are allowed to make the attempt then wake effects should work.


Wake effects work. The guy cross-table with no Malkavians can play a Wake effect with his Nosferatu vampire. Wake effects allow you to play reaction cards and/or block, but don't compel you to do so.

"Untap and block" effects aren't Wake effects. You have to block, and have to be eligible to block. In the overwhelming majority of cases, your eligibility to block (as in, being controlled by the right Methuselah) doesn't change as a result of untapping, so the issue doesn't matter.

(Untap effects not being Wake effects matters in some other parts of the game too. You can't use an "untap" effect in the "as the card is played" window, to facilitate card cancellation.)

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08 Sep 2019 17:10 #96869 by redwulfe
Sorry, yes. My mistake. The rules do say that only methuselahs that are targeted or have things being target have the ability to block. I am still new so I could just be muddying the water. If this is not correct then I am fully not understanding and will keep to myself. :)

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