file Outside the hourglass

10 Sep 2019 19:17 #96907 by kschaefer
Replied by kschaefer on topic Outside the hourglass

Hakuron wrote: If I (finally) understood the whole thing with "impulse" and "before range is determined" effects, then the answer is no.

Player A has the impulse and plays OtH sup. Player B does not have the impulse and could prevent the damage by OtH only with combat cards plainly reading "prevent x damage" (since it is not a strike).

This is a correct understanding of the impulse moving from A to B, but an incorrect understanding of the damage prevention window.

You may play non-damage prevention cards that are legally playable during the damage prevention window. For instance, Aura Reading to cycle for prevent. Given that the players are still in the pre-range, when the damage prevention window opens, you can play pre-range effects in response. See also the many confusing threads about Alpha Glint vs. OotH.

So, Horrid Form is a valid play, and the prevention that Horrid Form provides can be used to prevent the damage the OotH inflicts, see the link Kushiel provided.

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10 Sep 2019 22:52 #96912 by jamesatzephyr
Replied by jamesatzephyr on topic Outside the hourglass

Mewcat wrote: Nah, it should just follow standard combat demage resolution, right?


It broadly does. But damage prevention doesn't prevent other effects being used. Leaving aside the pre-range issue momentarily, the simplest example is probably this:
A hits B for 1. (And B hits A for 1, but that's irrelevant.)
B wants to prevent it, but doesn't have any damage prevention in hand.
B taps The Barrens, discards a card, and draws into some damage prevention.

That's legit.

If you want to argue that that's happening outside of damage prevention, then consider the alternative scenario:
A hits B for 2.
B has inferior Fortitude, and a Skin of Rock in hand (prevent 1 damage).
B plays Skin of Rock.
B draws another card to replace it, but it's not useful.
B taps The Barrens, and draws a second Skin of Rock.
B plays Skin of Rock (no 2).

That's also legit.


When you have damage prevention pre-range, it works much the same - except you now have access to some other, weirder cards that you can play instead of tapping The Barrens. Such as playing Aura Reading to get more hand size. Such as playing Alpha Glint to end combat (but damage still has to be handled). Or such as playing a pre-range damage prevention card like Horrid Form, which now lets you prevent damage.


The practical upshot of this is that pre-range with damage in it can get quite weird. But the alternatives are largely more annoying. You end up having to do things like say: You can only play damage prevention in damage prevention, which gets weird for Skin of Night (treating agg as normal) and similar damage-ish cards. Or you allow damage prevention and damage-related cards, but that gets tricky to delineate. And then you still wonder whether card cycling cards should be allowed (and is Aura Reading for +hand size hand cycling)? If it's not, it's a bit weird that you can't use it here but can use it in, say, a stealth/intercept fight. None of the alternatives are that great.

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10 Sep 2019 23:00 #96916 by jamesatzephyr
Replied by jamesatzephyr on topic Outside the hourglass

kschaefer wrote:

Hakuron wrote: If I (finally) understood the whole thing with "impulse" and "before range is determined" effects, then the answer is no.

Player A has the impulse and plays OtH sup. Player B does not have the impulse and could prevent the damage by OtH only with combat cards plainly reading "prevent x damage" (since it is not a strike).

This is a correct understanding of the impulse moving from A to B, but an incorrect understanding of the damage prevention window.


Sort of. The impulse works normally in damage handling. Player B has to be given the impulse at some point in order to be able to play damage prevention, Skin of Night etc.

[LSJ 20061114] is about damage prevention, and declaration of additional strikes. Previously, they'd been sort-of working in their own special way - acting declares additional strikes before other player, but couldn't change their mind (as normal sequencing would allow) to play one if the other player did play one. Same for damage prevention.

Post that ruling, they both work the same way, following normal sequencing rules.

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10 Sep 2019 23:40 #96918 by Mewcat
Replied by Mewcat on topic Outside the hourglass
I figured u could play stuff. My response was to hakuron

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11 Sep 2019 02:51 #96919 by kschaefer
Replied by kschaefer on topic Outside the hourglass

jamesatzephyr wrote: Sort of. The impulse works normally in damage handling. Player B has to be given the impulse at some point in order to be able to play damage prevention, Skin of Night etc

I didn't say that it was different. Just that Hakuron was incorrect about being forced to play prevention immediately.

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11 Sep 2019 03:57 #96920 by Mewcat
Replied by Mewcat on topic Outside the hourglass
As I have said before, none of this really matters. Every vtes event is basically house rules since the head judge almost certainly doesnt know the rules.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Lönkka

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