Flesh of Marble and aggravated damage

If the text changes, then should it be like this?

Only usable before range is chosen.
[pro] For the duration of the combat, when this vampire suffers a point of damage (that he or she does not prevent) in a given round, any additional damage inflicted on this vampire in the same round is automatically reduced to 0. Aggravated damage cannot be reduced in this way. [PRO] As above, but aggravated damage is reduced in this way as well.

Palamedes wrote:

If the text changes, then should it be like this?

Only usable before range is chosen.
[pro] For the duration of the combat, when this vampire suffers a point of damage (that he or she does not prevent) in a given round, any additional damage inflicted on this vampire in the same round is automatically reduced to 0. Aggravated damage cannot be reduced in this way. [PRO] As above, but aggravated damage is reduced in this way as well.

Hell no. This change would make this ridiculous card even more powerfull. At least right now you can still deal unpreventable damage. Your change would make it so you only receive 1 dmg per round and there is no way around it.

LivesByProxy wrote:

I understand what Mewcat is saying.

The word "suffer" appears in the rulebook twice, both times in an example of play. The word "suffer" is not used in the section about damage prevention. Flesh of Marble is the only card in Amaranth that uses the word "suffer".

And the rules explain in 6.4.6. Damage Resolution:

FIRST, the minion taking damage can play damage prevention cards, which resolve immediately.
2nd, any remaining damage - damage not prevented - is successfully inflicted.
3rd, the vampire must then heal the damage by burning blood, if able. Otherwise the vampire becomes wounded and goes to torpor.

What Mewcat is saying is that the card Flesh of Marble does not follow the rulebook's structure for preventing damage. Flesh of Marble "activates / triggers" during the 2nd step, which is after the 1st - the actual prevent damage step. That's why he's saying "we go back in time" to the prevent damage step.

I think Mewcat is right. Flesh of Marble is entirely it's own thing.

I think we intuitively know how Flesh of Marble is meant to work, but it doesn't work within the structure the rules provide.

But it's also worth pointing out: the rules as written don't allow a window to use prevent damage effects that aren't cards you're playing from hand. For example, Guardian Angel prevents 1 damage each combat, but the rulebook doesn't mention that. It only says "play damage prevention cards".

Yes. I thought I had made my case clearly enough but I guess some found it unclear.

LivesByProxy wrote:

But it's also worth pointing out: the rules as written don't allow a window to use prevent damage effects that aren't cards you're playing from hand. For example, Guardian Angel prevents 1 damage each combat, but the rulebook doesn't mention that. It only says "play damage prevention cards".

That is why, in the very early stages of rulebook, is this little gem.

"1.4. The Golden Rule for Cards

Whenever the cards contradict the rules, the cards take precedence."

It incidentally also applies to Flesh of Marble "time travelling." Rulebook says damage prevention works in certain way, but before that it has mentioned the sanctioned accurate text in the cards is more important and overrides what rulebook says. I do agree it would be best for us all *if* we went the trouble, spent the time and found agreement to uniform all the cards to follow certain formats and rule structures. But until that happens, 1.4 is there and it serves us. Ignoring it is playing Devil's Advocate and choosing which parts of the rules best suit the given situation and making position around that.

Flesh of Marble card text clearly says first damage that is suffered and not prevented activates it and explains what happens after that. It contradicts the rulebook damage example but it's still perfectly valid way for card to work. I personally cannot remember how much changes the damage prevention step in the rulebook has seen over the years but it's perfectly reasonable to assume both the card text and rulebook damage prevention step has seen multiple iterations since then.

Palamedes wrote:

If the text changes, then should it be like this?

Only usable before range is chosen.
[pro] For the duration of the combat, when this vampire suffers a point of damage (that he or she does not prevent) in a given round, any additional damage inflicted on this vampire in the same round is automatically reduced to 0. Aggravated damage cannot be reduced in this way. [PRO] As above, but aggravated damage is reduced in this way as well.

That wording about reducing damage to zero is at first glance good suggestion, until one considers following cards and their interaction with that version of Flesh of Marble compared to original. It also highlights the quagmire waiting a well meant attempt to make card more easily understood by using rulebook terms. It would buff the effect of Flesh of Marble against certain disciplines, kick Nosferatu bit deeper down on the power scale and ensure no future "damage cannot be prevented" cards would work as counter against Flesh of Marble. That's why there's cards with "immune to damage" and why some other cards only speak about preventing damage.

Name: Flesh of Marble
[Jyhad:R2, VTES:R, Anarchs:C/PG, KMW:PG3, KoT:U]
Cardtype: Combat
Discipline: Protean
Only usable before range is chosen.
[pro] For the duration of the combat, when this vampire suffers a point of damage (that he or she does not prevent) in a given round, any additional damage inflicted on this vampire in the same round is automatically prevented. Aggravated damage cannot be prevented in this way.
[PRO] As above, but aggravated damage is prevented in this way as well.
Artist: Pete Venters; Jenny Frison

Name: Strike at the True Flesh
[LotN:C]
Cardtype: Combat
Discipline: Quietus
[qui] Only usable before resolution of a melee weapon's strike. For the remainder of the round, non-aggravated damage from this weapon's strikes cannot be prevented except by equipment or by other strikes.
[QUI] As above, and this weapon's strikes inflict +1 damage.
Artist: Brian LeBlanc

Name: Vascular Explosion
[FN:C2]
Cardtype: Combat
Cost: 2 blood
Discipline: Quietus
[qui] Strike: 2 damage, 3 damage to an ally. Damage cannot be prevented.
[QUI] Strike: 3 damage, 4 damage to an ally. Damage cannot be prevented.
Artist: Steve Prescott

Name: Blood Sweat
[AH:C2, FN:PA5]
Cardtype: Combat
Cost: 1 blood
Discipline: Quietus
[qui] Strike: 2R damage; only usable at long range. Damage cannot be prevented.
[QUI] Strike: 3R damage; only usable at long range. Damage cannot be prevented.
Artist: Rob Alexander

Name: Exuding Blood
[FN:C2]
Cardtype: Combat
Discipline: Quietus
[qui] Strike: 1R damage, only usable at long range. Damage cannot be prevented.
[QUI] Strike: 2R damage, only usable at long range. Damage cannot be prevented.
Artist: Steve Ellis

Name: The Spawning Pool
[Jyhad:R, VTES:R, CE:R/PN]
Cardtype: Master
Clan: Nosferatu
Master: unique location.
During your unlock phase, you may move 1 blood from a ready Nosferatu you control to this card. If a minion you control blocks a bleed against you, you may lock this card during the second round of the resulting combat to inflict 1 damage to the acting minion for each blood on the Spawning Pool. This damage cannot be prevented.
Artist: Mark Nelson; Anson Maddocks

beslin wrote:

And can you explain if vampire play inferior Flesh of marble and take normal and aggr damage how is that resolved

Same principle: normal damage is handled first. You take 1 damage, Flesh of Marble triggers, it prevents the rests of the normal damage, then the aggravated comes comes, but Flesh of Marble cannot prevent it so you still take it.

That is why, in the very early stages of rulebook, is this little gem.

"1.4. The Golden Rule for Cards

Whenever the cards contradict the rules, the cards take precedence."

............

It's been said countless times, the golden rule isn't an excuse for sloppy templating and wording. We still need some way to be able to figure out how the cards work other then royal decree.