Flesh of Marble and aggravated damage

LivesByProxy wrote:

FoM would seem to be operating outside the provided rules structure. In this manner, it reminds me of all the "Before range is determined," cards and Immortal Grapple and Taste of Vitae: they don't so much contradict the rules, but create timing windows on-the-fly where none previously existed (as per the combat structure outlined in the rulebook.)

The golden rule is even more problematic than this, as even a cursory examination will reveal. We have cards that set range. I play shadow step and set long. You play shadow step and set close. The rules say this is not legal. The card you played said it sets range and the golden rule invalidates the rules in preference to the card. There is no reason that setting range couldn't be a sort of super maneuver other than the rules tell us so.

This isn't brain surgery.

Ankha wrote:

LivesByProxy wrote:

The word suffer really shouldn't be used, since it isn't being used correctly. Maybe the word "assign" would be more apt.

Why is that? Assigned is used elsewhere and has a different meaning that wouldn't apply here, since "assigned" damage could be interpreted differently in "I assign 2 damage to your retainer".
Suffer is perfectly fine here.

I agree that "suffer" is fine, especially because you provided a definition of what it means earlier in this thread (basically damage is suffered if it is dealt but not prevented or handled yet, right?). Also, it seems to be consistent with how "suffer" is currently used in the rulebook (per the passage below). That's awesome. Keep up the good work.

"Kurt uses his hands for the second strike. Ira uses his hands also. Both suffer 1 damage. Ira then uses his hands one more time, and Kurt can't use a strike because he had only one additional strike. Kurt suffers one more damage."

LivesByProxy wrote:

FoM would seem to be operating outside the provided rules structure. In this manner, it reminds me of all the "Before range is determined," cards and Immortal Grapple and Taste of Vitae: they don't so much contradict the rules, but create timing windows on-the-fly where none previously existed (as per the combat structure outlined in the rulebook.)

This is nothing new. There is a whole lot of cards that create timing steps of their own, and cause a lot of rules conflict requiring word-of-god rulings on how the cards work.

I have, for the past 2-3 years, been trying to point out that the best course forward would be to errata the problematic cards (there are not that many) so they function within existing timing step framework. Yet the rules committee hasn't really even acknowledged the problem, no matter how many recurring rules questions we get on this forum about these cards. People are just like: "why?" Well I think the why should be obvious by now..

Instead, we always have to resort to Ankha waving his hands, referring to archaic google documents written way before the problematic cards were printed; and essentially declaring how the cards work and damn the rules.

Granted, there are some cards where such an errata might not even be possible (first tradition springs to mind)

Ill just drop the mic now.

Ankha wrote:

LivesByProxy wrote:

The word suffer really shouldn't be used, since it isn't being used correctly. Maybe the word "assign" would be more apt.

Why is that? Assigned is used elsewhere and has a different meaning that wouldn't apply here, since "assigned" damage could be interpreted differently in "I assign 2 damage to your retainer".
Suffer is perfectly fine here.

Because the word "suffer" typically means, "to undergo pain or stress." (Edit: Even better: "to sustain injury.") With that meaning, it would seem "to suffer damage" would be in step c) where "damage is handled / healed".

But this just brings up another weird rule: that vampires must burn blood to heal damage, instead of damage causing them to lose / burn blood. (How often has "healing damage" mattered in VTES in the past? Sword of Nuln? Repair The Undead Flesh? Brother's Blood? I guess props to BC for building on this otherwise forgotten mechanic in the Lost Kindred expansion: Regenerative Blood is kind of neat.)

But again, we're left with this supposed rules framework of a) compute damage, b) prevent damage window, c) heal / handle the damage, even though within step b) is a mysterious space where the damage is actually dealt / taken / received / suffered (all these words are used interchangeably in the rulebook) before being handled / healed in step c).

And again, "suffer" is used on 1 card: Flesh of Marble. (According to Amaranth.) "Assign" is used on 0 cards according to Amaranth.

Are you guys using "suffer" in the 1800's sense of the word? As in, "to allow; to tolerate." Because then the word would actually make sense in the way that you want it to: damage not prevented during step b) is "allowed" (to go through) i.e. "suffered".

Lol. The plot thickens. Vtes players are all expected to be lawyers. The defense may now cross examine.