file Synesios

09 Oct 2019 06:30 #97308 by Ankha
Replied by Ankha on topic Synesios

vragozakas wrote:

Ankha wrote:

vragozakas wrote: Can I play more than one master out of turn per Synesios special text?

No

Was predicting so

Ankha wrote:

vragozakas wrote: Why can't I borrow more than one m.p.a.?

Rulebook. "You cannot play a second out-of-turn master card before your next master phase."

This is strange, because it's not a direct reply to my question.
We currently play in a game environment wich allows players to play 2/3 masters phase action per turn, wich is kind of boring (i.m.o.). Synesios is a minion wich could completely trump this behavior with his special, if only there wasn't a rule that for no significant reason disallows more than one m.o.o.t. per round.
The general reasoning behind the m.o.o.t. limit is that you "borrow" your next m.p.a., that is why deck like anson/cybele/nana can't play 2-3 m.o.o.t., there is no guarantee that minion with that special will be around on next master phase.
Synesios's special doesen't work that way, he restore's owner m.p.a. right away, there's a great deck here (i.m.h.o.) trumped by a rule made in a time when cybelotron wasen't an issue.|/quote]
"could completely" and "general reasoning behind the moot limit..." are not related to rule, rather to game design. In this topic, we're answering rule questions, not "what if" questions, sorry.

Anka wrote:

vragozakas wrote: M.o.o.t. should gain the reminder "limited"?

Why should them?

As a reminder, of a piece of rules text that is long 13 words drowned in a document that is really long and non so easy to remember in its totality.

It's a bad idea to put a reminder text on a trait that is already clearly defined in the rulebook.

Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

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10 Oct 2019 11:17 - 10 Oct 2019 11:20 #97325 by Bloodartist
Replied by Bloodartist on topic Synesios

vragozakas wrote: Synesios's special doesen't work that way, he restore's owner m.p.a. right away, there's a great deck here (i.m.h.o.) trumped by a rule made in a time when cybelotron wasen't an issue.


No he doesn't. Are you actually reading Synesios' card text?

He says you gain an MPA during your NEXT master phase. You cannot play an out-of-turn (even if you could play multiple MooTs) if you don't have a master phase action to spend. The master phase action gain is not immediate as you claim it to be. You cannot spend something you don't have yet.

ps. Synesios and 30 suddens doesn't seem like it should be a thing.

"Plenty of little men tried to put their swords through my heart. And there's plenty of little skeletons buried in the woods."
- Tormund Giantsbane, Game of Thrones
Last edit: 10 Oct 2019 11:20 by Bloodartist.

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12 Oct 2019 08:14 #97349 by vragozakas
Replied by vragozakas on topic Synesios

Bloodartist wrote: No he doesn't. Are you actually reading Synesios' card text?

He says you gain an MPA during your NEXT master phase. You cannot play an out-of-turn (even if you could play multiple MooTs) if you don't have a master phase action to spend. The master phase action gain is not immediate as you claim it to be. You cannot spend something you don't have yet.

Synesios wrote: Name: Synesios
[BL:R2]
Cardtype: Vampire
Clan: True Brujah
Group: 2
Capacity: 8
Discipline: obf ser POT PRE TEM
Independent: Synesios has 2 votes (titled). You may pay a pool when you play a Master: Out-of-Turn card to gain an extra master phase action in your next master phase. Synesios cannot use cards that require Celerity [cel]. Scarce.
Artist: Durwin Talon


Relevant card text: pay 1 pool when You play a m.o.o.t. to gain 1 extra m.p.a. in you next master phase. Once you have paid, next turn you'll gain a mpa, as usual during the master phase. I can't see the difference You're pointing out.

Rulebook, master cards wrote: Out-of-turn master cards can be played during other players' turns. By playing an out-of-turn master card, you are effectively "borrowing" from your next master phase -- that is, playing the card now instead of waiting until your next master phase.


In bold important text.

ps. Synesios and 30 suddens doesn't seem like it should be a thing.

p.s. not even to me, I don't think I've ever suggested a deck like that, whit that card count. But if this are all your's deckbuilding skills and imagination, I hope we met someday at some tournament :P

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12 Oct 2019 15:13 - 12 Oct 2019 15:19 #97357 by Kilrauko
Replied by Kilrauko on topic Synesios

vragozakas wrote: Relevant card text: pay 1 pool when You play a m.o.o.t. to gain 1 extra m.p.a. in you next master phase. Once you have paid, next turn you'll gain a mpa, as usual during the master phase. I can't see the difference You're pointing out.


You have steady income source, it happens monthly. Something special happens and you call your bank whether or not you can loan them the cash in advance, they know it's a steady source and agree. That's the Master out of turn.

Then you decide to have your friends/family/whoever pay the loaned sum on your next payday. That's the pool cost of Synesios. You have your salary incoming, that's going to the bank, and then some loaned money you used social credit (pool) for.

Then you call your bank again and ask, "hey, remember how you loaned me money for my next paycheck, can you loan me again?" The Bank says no because you've already done that. You then claim your friends/family/whoever is paying you next month, the bank doesn't care as the transaction won't show on their end before it happens. As you don't own the "sure" money yet. Feel free to argue with them whether or not "it's the same thing" and they can provide in greater detail why there's difference between cash in hand and cash promised to be in hand sometime in the future.

That's why there's importance whether Synesios gives the Master phase action right away, or when it comes your next master phase, in VTES, you might be ousted before that ever happens hence you might pay the 1 pool for nothing, just like in real life trusting your friends, family or whoever that they'll certainly cover your next month. Bank won't take that chance and neither does the design of Synesios.

Trust in Jan Pieterzoon.
Last edit: 12 Oct 2019 15:19 by Kilrauko. Reason: change->chance

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13 Oct 2019 08:46 - 13 Oct 2019 08:47 #97363 by Bloodartist
Replied by Bloodartist on topic Synesios

vragozakas wrote: In bold important text.


In a normal situation with no cards played, you have a MPA in your next master phase. Therefore you can play an out-of-turn master, "borrowing" from your next master phase.

If you have Synesios in play, and play an out-of-turn master out of turn, you don't have a MPA in your next master phase. You will GAIN MPA only after you have actually proceeded to your next master phase. Before your next turn, you can't "borrow" what isn't there.

This is my rationale for why Synesios' ability doesn't stack. You don't prematurely gain an MPA. You will gain it only during your next turn. Its a delayed trigger, like we say in Magic.

"Plenty of little men tried to put their swords through my heart. And there's plenty of little skeletons buried in the woods."
- Tormund Giantsbane, Game of Thrones
Last edit: 13 Oct 2019 08:47 by Bloodartist.

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14 Oct 2019 08:21 #97382 by vragozakas
Replied by vragozakas on topic Synesios

Bloodartist wrote: If you have Synesios in play, and play an out-of-turn master out of turn, you don't have a MPA in your next master phase. You will GAIN MPA only after you have actually proceeded to your next master phase. Before your next turn, you can't "borrow" what isn't there.
This is my rationale for why Synesios' ability doesn't stack. You don't prematurely gain an MPA. You will gain it only during your next turn. Its a delayed trigger, like we say in Magic.

Kilrauko wrote: That's why there's importance whether Synesios gives the Master phase action right away, or when it comes your next master phase, in VTES, you might be ousted before that ever happens hence you might pay the 1 pool for nothing, just like in real life trusting your friends, family or whoever that they'll certainly cover your next month. Bank won't take that chance and neither does the design of Synesios.



Thanks for this replies, You're helping me understand vtes even further. I still fail to notice the difference between:

rulebook wrote: 5. Master Phase
You receive master phase actions during your master phase. A master phase action represents your personal activity during the turn as a Methuselah.

And

that bastard of Synesios wrote: Name: Synesios
[BL:R2]
Cardtype: Vampire
Clan: True Brujah
Group: 2
Capacity: 8
Discipline: obf ser POT PRE TEM
Independent: Synesios has 2 votes (titled). You may pay a pool when you play a Master: Out-of-Turn card to gain an extra master phase action in your next master phase. Synesios cannot use cards that require Celerity [cel]. Scarce.
Artist: Durwin Talon


The verb is gain rather then receive, but I think they're synonyms. I think the examples with bank account are more similar to the anson/cybele/nana/parthenon type of cards. You should have some more mpas on your master phase, if they are still around. Synesios is a way to grant you 1 mpa when you should gain that mpa.
The only thing that right now makes me doubt of my own reasoning is the adjective "extra" in Synesios card text, but this can be relevant only if the cost of a moot is a "natural/original/standard" m.p.a., not a "extra" mpa.

I don't want to sound stubborn, and I know all of this is a sort of scy/fy-vtes, but nonetheless is a nice exercise for the comprehension of rules and mechanics of this game.

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